Censorship

[Supernova224]

So yesterday cprince suggested that if people were passionate about subjects not pertaining to the thread being posted in, to start a new one. So that's exactly what I'll do.

Let me preface this by saying that I've been a member of FH for less than a year, and in that short period of time this has become my most visited web page in my browser. Im consistently blown away by the quality of the discussion here, the exchange of different viewpoints, and great reports that so many contribute. From what I've seen in this short time from RJ, it's obvious that he's a true ambassador for the sport. With that in mind, I don't want to contribute to the "BS" that he has to deal with on FH, but I truly feel that this is an important topic.

This is where yesterday's exchange comes in. I'll do my best to quickly describe it, as most of the comments have since been deleted. On a report showcasing a monster of an Ottawa river musky, the question of release and stressed fish (red tail) was brought up, with the OP responding that the fish was indeed released and swam away. At this point, our moderator responded with what I thought was a pretty heavy-handed comment asking why we're even talking about release, and defending OP's right to do whatever he wants within legal bounds with his fish, including having a musky and sturgeon bbq in QC. He accused the commenter of crapping on the report. Another user responded with, again in my opinion, a pretty reasonable response saying that talking about fish mortality is a good thing for the sport, and that there's plenty of room for people who eat most of their catches, those who practice full C & R, and everyone in between.

This is where things went south. Our moderator's response to that comment was something along the lines of "Thanks for your input, but NO." He went on to say that we have NO RIGHT to comment on someone's report asking about fish mortality or whether they kept their fish. He also went on to say that this type of commenting dissuades people from posting reports. I wish I had the full text of the comments, because this doesn't even being to describe the aggressive posting of the moderator, which has since been deleted along with other comments in the post. Including mine in response to being told we have NO RIGHT to comment on fish mortality. I asked the simple question, "this is a public forum, no?". That comment was deleted, so I sent cprince a very simple PM asking why it was deleted, and if I had violated site rules. That PM has since been deleted from my outbox and sent messages!

The reason I'm taking the time to post this, besides being a little miffed about perfectly reasonable comments being deleted, is because it's highly reminiscent of a site not so dissimilar to FH that I was involved with a few years back. It wasn't fishing related, but it was a forum for an up and coming sport that was quickly gaining readership and tons of members. There was a competitor's site as well, and the two were very different in how they were run. One site had very open rules about commenting, and promoted free speech provided it didn't cross the line in to outright disrespect and name-calling. The other site had very strict mods and would delete comments and ban users pretty regularly. Can you guess which site had the best discussion, open debate and the most active user base? It wasn't even a question.

I completely agree that FH should be a family friendly place, and that there's no room for disrespecting people here. 99% of the discussion I see on FH seems to fall within these bounds. If the other 1% warrants deleting comments or banning users, I'm fine with that. But what happened yesterday was a mod simply didn't agree with the opinions being expressed in a thread, and he used his position to censor those views. That's the type of behaviour that dissuades me from posting a report here, not the behaviour of the users.

[banjo]

I would rather see reports about legally caught and sometimes released fish, than a discussion insinuating that somebody is mistreating a fish. Whatever helps me to see more awesome reports with photos of fish... then so be it. I leave it in the hands of the site owners, not the public. I go fishing to relieve stress, and if this causes some fish stress... then maybe the fish need to find a hobby other than ending up on the end of my line.

[ShawnD]

Well that was an interesting read..

Craig was right about the comments about C&R and harvesting.. I've seen MANY posts go south because someone isn't holding a fish properly or they ate a huge slab (Mega crappie). Members will comment and try to educate them but because this is the internet and things are not always understood with the same intention as it was written, you end up with some nasty back and forth..

Fish-Hawk is quite the Gem because where else will you find locals willing to help you, share fishing stories and even offer a fishing spot or an open seat on their boat??
Some almost give a "how to" course in certain threads...
Keep comments positive, most anglers that regularly post know how to hold fish, what to do and what not to do ...
Hearing about it in the comments OVER AND OVER is a P.I.T.A....

As for the moderators, they've seen it all and like you said they deal with a lot of BS..
When a poster makes a thread and you don't like how he's holding a Musky/Bass/Carp/ what ever!
PLEASE don't try to educate him in that specific thread...
Start a new one, don't target him and educate the rest of the site on the proper handling of that fish.. That's where great conversations begin and where people can talk and give out advice to fine tune their technique.

Thanks
Shawn.D

[Supernova224]

Agree with both of your comments guys, and ShawnD I think you bring up an important reminder that things are not always taken as they were intended on the internet. That can lead to some unnecessary BS.

However, if you're interested in seeing comments kept positive, the most negative comments on that musky thread, and again on the "Ottawa river eaters" thread were not coming from users, but from the moderator.

[ShawnD]

Agree with both of your comments guys, and ShawnD I think you bring up an important reminder that things are not always taken as they were intended on the internet. That can lead to some unnecessary BS.

However, if you're interested in seeing comments kept positive, the most negative comments on that musky thread, and again on the "Ottawa river eaters" thread were not coming from users, but from the moderator.

You'll have to let this one go at some point, takes a all kinds to make a world and moderators are people too


Shawn.D

[cprince]

Seriously?

You have no idea how much I am shaking my head right now. I must look like I am at a Grateful Dead concert.
Never got any PM from you. I did from another member who also was in on that thread, but NONE from you. I have ZERO ability to go into someone's PMs. The only way I could do that is to change your password to something I would know and log in as you! Don't be a meat head and accuse me of doing anything unless you know the facts and you are not just reacting to a funny feeling in your duodenum and whatever messages got through your tin foil hat.

Censorship.

I am against it. Entirely. I have had long standing battles with previous managements, moderators and members. I loathe censorship.

That being said, I MOVED yours, and other perhaps more negatively connotated posts that serve to detract or criticize a person who is positively contributing to the sites content, to a moderator section of the form for further discussion about it to see if there is something that needs to be done, or if I am over-reacting. I TOTALLY leave that possibility open. I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again.

That being said:

Over the years, the single most common reason stated for those who either stopped posting reports or do not post reports was fear of scrutiny and ridicule from other members about how they caught the fish, what they did with it or how they were holding it... under the guise of "Educating" the OP.

Craig

[C5]

I have been a member here for a number of years and have been fortune to fish across North America for a variety of species.

I too took exception to the comment made regarding the stress of that musky.

While I will give the commenter the benefit of the doubt that he really was trying to educate, many many times here the comments are to show how much smarter, more ethical, better fisherman (or hunter) and overall person they are... basically making the original poster sorry he/she went to the trouble to post the pic in the first place.

If you are an expert and note something you are concerned with, why not fire off a pm and respectfully offer advice.. or better yet start a new post regarding the issue without centering out a particular pic so we all can see and comment

We want people to post... it is interesting and why we come here and we should be creating an environment that encourages people to do so.

I hope there isn't wifi on Great Slave:)

Ron

[Supernova224]

Well Craig, I can certainly admit when I'm wrong, and if that PM didn't go through I apologize for saying that it was deleted. I thought I sent it but clearly I was wrong.

I just couldn't understand why my comment of "this is a public forum, no?" would be deleted without any suggestion of a reason why. I didn't question the OP's handling of the fish, or take part in the (perfectly reasonable) discussion of fish mortality and it's importance to anglers. And for the record, I agree that we should promote fishing reports and not jump on people for handling, C & R, etc. I just don't think a mod should be deleting or moving comments that contain a pretty healthy dialogue. It didn't even involve the person who asked about the stress and release of the fish, which wasn't me by the way. I didn't even take part in that part of the conversation.

I think you should take a look at the Hawk Talk rules again. Your comments today and the ones that we can't see anymore from yesterday that were "moved" can probably be addressed by Section 1 - Respect for People.

Don't be a meat head and accuse me of doing anything unless you know the facts and you are not just reacting to a funny feeling in your duodenum and whatever messages got through your tin foil hat.
Craig

You said yesterday that the goal was to promote a positive dialogue on FH, this doesn't seem like that...

[TheMaverick]

Craig threw himself under the bus numerous times when it comes to Maverick, it’s only fair I do the same.
He’s rude, obnoxious, unpleasantly direct and morally controversial.
With that being said, you’ll need more than a year to understand him and his questionable ways!

And then there’s BassAddict.....

All and all, CPrince has kept this site going through rough times.
I’ve witnessed firsthand his efforts and devotion when FH was to crash and burn behind closed doors.

He’s a good stick! Take his comments with a grain of salt.

As for fish mortality, you should have started a separate thread, it's a delicate subject, and one easily perceived to be wrongly accused.

[StarTzar]

I'll keep my thoughts and comments to myself.

[TheMaverick]

I'll keep my thoughts and comments to myself.

This thread is for diplomatically conveyed expressions.
Pls start your own separate thread about not speaking your mind

[cprince]

Well Craig, I can certainly admit when I'm wrong, and if that PM didn't go through I apologize for saying that it was deleted. I thought I sent it but clearly I was wrong.

No sweat. I am the same way. If I am wrong.. my hands go up in the air and my shoulders shrug... and I say I am sorry because I usually am.

I just couldn't understand why my comment of "this is a public forum, no?" would be deleted without any suggestion of a reason why. I didn't question the OP's handling of the fish, or take part in the (perfectly reasonable) discussion of fish mortality and it's importance to anglers. And for the record, I agree that we should promote fishing reports and not jump on people for handling, C & R, etc. I just don't think a mod should be deleting or moving comments that contain a pretty healthy dialogue. It didn't even involve the person who asked about the stress and release of the fish, which wasn't me by the way. I didn't even take part in that part of the conversation.

It was only serving to further a debate that has no place in that report. AGAIN... we want people to post reports. We don't what their threads to turn into a shiiit show. Again... as for suggesting why; I wanted to confer in the moderator forum before coming to any conclusions.

I think you should take a look at the Hawk Talk rules again. Your comments today and the ones that we can't see anymore from yesterday that were "moved" can probably be addressed by Section 1 - Respect for People.

Don't be a meat head and accuse me of doing anything unless you know the facts and you are not just reacting to a funny feeling in your duodenum and whatever messages got through your tin foil hat.
Craig

You said yesterday that the goal was to promote a positive dialogue on FH, this doesn't seem like that...

No... no... You were being a meathead. Call it what you want. If you are offended by me pointing out the fact you were being a meathead, then don't be one... at least not publicly. If you want an apology, then: I am sorry you were being a meat head.

Promoting positive dialogue was out the window from the moment you so dramatically titled this thread "Censorship" and accused me of immoral and egregious acts of breaches of trust.

Let me say this, I am a meat head... OFTEN! This time you were. So what?

Move on.

Go fishing. Post a report.

Come to Quebec and I will take you out and put you on some BASS! Seriously!

Craig

[fatluke]

Well guys, we haven't had to moderate any posts in a very long time.

I think it's time to lock this one up before anyone else gets offended.

Craig is Craig... The one and only moderator we have on the site and he does a good job at keeping things under control. Like Maverick said, it does take some time to understand him, but after being on the site for many years with him, he is indeed a character we all learn to love.

Now please no more topics about this discussion.

Carry on with the reports, comments and constructive criticism.

It doesn't matter what someone posts about, there are always people that will disagree. Keep it to yourself. We (Myself, RJ and Craig) do not have the time for this. (Well maybe Craig does.. lol)..

Carry on folks, end of discussion.