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Cecil the Lion - How things change

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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby riverdog » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:42 am

As Smitty mentioned trophy hunting in many Africain countries is a big source of income & many times these same game reserves are also responsible for breeding & maintaining healthy populations of big animals that would most likely be extinct without their management.
Now if the guide & landowner mislead the hunter or the hunter in fact knew he was hunting illegally then they all should be charged & found guilty.
I'm not a hunter nor do I like seeing elephants or rinos, loins killed but if it's managed correctly & allows people to make a living in an area of the world where $ is hard to come by then I'm supportive of it.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby TheMaverick » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:34 am

smitty55 wrote:
Mav, the clueless idiots, specially the uninformed antis, I was referring to were all those people who saw one sensational headline and started freaking out over a cute lion and trophy hunting in general, and then talked about boycotting airlines and all the rest of the over hyping of the situation. After a while many of the airlines regained their senses and decided that blocking legal hunters from traveling wasn't too good for business. Hunting dollars in Zimbabwe are a huge business and directly contribute to the management of all game species and to the control of poaching, which is a huge problem in some parts of Africa where the finances for law enforcement aren't available. Now if that dentist actually broke laws by shooting Cecil then I have no problem with him being prosecuted to the full extent of the law, but to lump all other hunters in the same boat as him is totally wrong and based more on emotion than common sense.
But hey, if you want to include yourself in with that crowd, go ahead, who am I to argue lol. :wink:

Cheers


Media feeding us BS is nothing new.

I still question where all that trophy hunt generated money goes, Africa still having one of the highest proportion of residents living in extreme poverty.

I digress, we have enough issues here in Canada with Trudeau, without having to worry about Lions.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby smitty55 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:34 pm

TheMaverick wrote: Media feeding us BS is nothing new.

I still question where all that trophy hunt generated money goes, Africa still having one of the highest proportion of residents living in extreme poverty.

I digress, we have enough issues here in Canada with Trudeau, without having to worry about Lions.


Agreed, corruption is even more prevalent there than here in Ontario.

If interested, here's a good thread on the subject with some very well thought out posts. http://www.oodmag.com/community/showthr ... quired-now

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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby orrsey » Thu Feb 25, 2016 2:26 pm

[quote="I digress, we have enough issues here in Canada with Trudeau, without having to worry about Lions[/quote]
:D
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby bl8ant » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:51 pm

The way I look at it, if it's legal, then who are we to condemn someone who is willing to pay up to $20,000 for a hunting adventure.

So when the Liberal government legalizes recreational marijuana use, you won't condemn those smoking it provided they pay good money to do so?

I mean, that is your philosophy right? If it's actually legal, what right do we have to object to the action.
My guess is that many on this board (with all of the the anti Liberal/Trudeau posts) won't employ that same philosophy.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby Out4trout » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:40 pm

Markus wrote:No one.

Without management, many animals would be extinct today. Hunting isnt the biggest threat to them, our over population on the earth is. Without a value placed on african animals, the majority of them would have been extinct long ago. A lot of "westerners" dont get it because we've been blinded and influenced by anti hunting movements. We've become so disconected to our heritage and roots, we're forgeting where we come from and what we are. Like it or not, humans are predators and we need to manage that for the sake of the wildlife on this over populated planet.



:handgestures-thumbupleft: Well worded.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby smitty55 » Thu Feb 25, 2016 5:56 pm

bl8ant wrote:
The way I look at it, if it's legal, then who are we to condemn someone who is willing to pay up to $20,000 for a hunting adventure.

So when the Liberal government legalizes recreational marijuana use, you won't condemn those smoking it provided they pay good money to do so?

I mean, that is your philosophy right? If it's actually legal, what right do we have to object to the action.
My guess is that many on this board (with all of the the anti Liberal/Trudeau posts) won't employ that same philosophy.


Actually my numbers were pretty far off on the short side. It's more like 75 to 100 grand per hunter for many of these African safaris. I can't imagine paying that much to hunt even if I had it, but hey, if you've got it, go for it.

As for the marijuana topic, I don't see how that's relevant to this thread. I also used the word condemn, not object, which any person may choose to do. And yes if it's legal, it's no different from any hunter anywhere in any country hunting whatever they chose to hunt.

I think you'll find that pretty well any outdoor forum will definitely lean to the right side of politics. Winnie and Trudope are making that rather easy. It's actually pretty quiet here compared to OOD and OFC.

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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby RJ » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:25 pm

smitty55 wrote:I think you'll find that pretty well any outdoor forum will definitely lean to the right side of politics. Winnie and Trudope are making that rather easy. It's actually pretty quiet here compared to OOD and OFC.

Cheers


It will remain that way as long as I have a say. I used to visit other fishing forums but after the same old same old whining about this and that from the same guys and NEVER talking about fishing it turned me off. Want to talk politics? Giver! Somewhere else.

About all can really add to this discussion is, Thanks for keeping it civil. It's a touchy subject to some and a chance for others to beat their chests about their hunting rights. As much as I don't like the antis I find the same rhetoric coming back from the other side saying how great this is for the local communities. How do you know that? Who's telling you that? The outfitter who I bet isn't a local at all is who is spreading that cheer. There's two sides to a story and I'll bet the truth is nowhere near anything us over here can even come close to knowing.

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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby bl8ant » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:09 pm

I feel like I am seeing more political commentary in posts now than in years past but that could just be my perception. Reading how only one political party (regardless of how you vote) could possibly do what's best for a country is short sighted and exhausting. I should have known better than to take the bait and construct my point around a politically sensitive topic. I apologize for that.

The core of my point was simply that just because something is technically legal doesn't mean that the majority agree with it. After all, laws change for that very reason. I believe this to be quite relevant to this discussion.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby bl8ant » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:27 pm

Hunting isnt the biggest threat to them, our over population on the earth is. Without a value placed on african animals, the majority of them would have been extinct long ago.


Value placed on animals and more specifically to their body parts have been directly linked to their population decline in many of the poverty stricken countries in Africa.

Elephants and the ivory trade come to mind
http://wildlifedirect.org/files/2009/11 ... et_02c.pdf
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby Markus » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:30 pm

RJ, check out Jim Shockey's show 'Uncharted" sometime. He gives a real personal look at some of the communities in Africa as well as how hunters play a role in them and the management of their resources. Its very well done.

Bl8ant, those elephants would be long gone if it wasnt for preserves and habitat protection...funded by hunters dollars. the money coming in for animal welfare and charity is next to nothing. Because these animals have a value, they are now exisiting. Poaching still goes on, but it's not tolerated like it once was. Poachers are killed now.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby bl8ant » Thu Feb 25, 2016 8:52 pm

Bl8ant, those elephants would be long gone if it wasnt for preserves and habitat protection...funded by hunters dollars. the money coming in for animal welfare and charity is next to nothing. Because these animals have a value, they are now exisiting. Poaching still goes on, but it's not tolerated like it once was. Poachers are killed now.


RIGHT NOW Ivory from Africa is the fifth most profitable illicit trade in the world. Estimates are around $10 billion per year and you think the value is what is keeping the elephants alive?

The high financial value put on the animal and more specifically it's tusks was the sole reason it was hunted to near extinction in the first place. This is universally accepted as fact and I'd be surprised to hear you (or anyone else for that matter) disagree with that statement. Arguing that this "value" is the only thing keeping the remaining decimated population alive doesn't undo that fact, nor does it lesson it's impact.

Bl8ant, those elephants would be long gone if it wasnt for preserves and habitat protection...funded by hunters dollars.the money coming in for animal welfare and charity is next to nothing.

I appreciate your opinion but would you mind sharing where you got those numbers from?

Between 1995 and 2001, WWF spent a total of US$ 44,700,000 on supporting 61 projects in Africa directly related to elephant conservation.
source: http://www.wwf.de/fileadmin/fm-wwf/Publ ... tsheet.pdf

Between 2006 and 2013, US Wildlife fish & Wildlife Service African Elephant Conservation Fund 2014 seems to have raised around US $30,000,000
source: http://www.fws.gov/international/wildli ... -fund.html
Last edited by bl8ant on Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby Eli » Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:33 pm

Interesting. I read one study recently that concluded the sum monetary value of each grizzly bear in BC to be 12 higher through eco tourism than it would be through trophy hunting. I don't know how accurate that number is, but it makes sense given that a bear shot through a telephoto lens can be 'paid for' multiple times by multiple people whereas a bear shot with a rifle is never paid for again. Value can be assigned to animals in ways that don't cater to foreign headhunters.
As African counties continue to develop their eco tourism industries, things will change.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby Markus » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:35 am

I think some are confusing poachers with hunters.
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Re: Cecil the Lion - How things change

Postby Oneeleven » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:43 am

Markus wrote:I think some are confusing poachers with hunters.


For sure. They're completely different.

But lets call a spade a spade.... Cecil's kill was by poaching. That wasn't a clean hunt.
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