No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Just what the title says....anything and everything related to Rods, Reels, Terminal Tackle, Plastics, what others are using, what works, what doesn't work, and anything else you want to talk about regarding equipment.
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OutdoorActionOntario
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by OutdoorActionOntario »

Full disclosure I'm all about my Shimano products, and I think the one thing Shimano has ALWAYS had going for it was its quality/worksmanship and part of that was the knowing that with a 200 dollar rod (or more) you were getting a product that the company would more or less stand behind in case of any sort of catastrophic failure. I don't know about anyone else around here, but when I spent multiple hundreds of dollars on just a ROD, I expect that rod to come with more then a 1 year warranty. That, in my view, is a total joke, and tells me that Shimano is really taking their customers for granted, to be perfectly honest with you.

I do not believe that this move to a lesser warranty policy will in any way shape or form HELP Shimano at a time when consumers are more aware then ever of price points, certain defects that occur across rod blank series, concerns from other anglers towards certain rods, any any other number of factors. If companies like, just for example, Lew's or St. Croix are willing to stamp a limited lifetime warranty on their rods, I fail to see how this will benefit Shimano, its customers or its retailers, at the end of the day.

I understand the concerns from retailers, but we as consumers are the ones who should be determining a company's policy as we are the ones paying for the new product and subsequently for any related costs like shipping on a warranty repair. We as Consumers are the Retailer's and Shimano's Gravy Train, their Bread and Butter, whatever you want to call it... We are the ones clicking on the ICAST stories and checking out gear review,etc. We are the ones comparing the latest and greatest fishing products we want to try/buy... it's our word of mouth and our successes on the water that translate into success for Fishing product manufacturers and retailers alike.

The other beef I have is that every series of rod they bring out now is just more expensive than the previous line... yet they are tamping down their warranty obligations?
If anything they should stand behind their product more then ever if they truly believe in them, as they expect us to shell out more and more money for these more "advanced rods"... Hmmm.

I would never complain about Shimano Reels, for the record. I swear by my Chronarchs and Stradics... I think they are pretty much top of the line in terms of their quality and am much less concerned about reel quality than I am rod quality from Shimano... However I am in the market for a new dropshot rod and frog rod and this new information will play into my purchasing decision, so already Shimano should see that this decision is impacting their customer base's options.

~OAO~
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by OutdoorActionOntario »

Paul Shibata wrote:Not to alienate any of the simplistic "back to the roots" anglers within the Fish-Hawk community, the rest of us are all voracious consumers, probably in more than one facet of our lives. Tackle aside, some of us may be equally passionate about photography, skiing, cars, camping, electronics, pick your poison. Other than the rare exception, only has the fishing rod industry created the ridiculous "damned if you do, damned if you don't" catastrophe which is the "unlimited over the counter warranty" (OTC). Break your Nikon and they'll happily sell you another one. On day 366, smoke coming from your flat screen is code for "sweetie, did you see the Best Buy flyer" I also suspect that warranty coverage isn't crossing your mind as you double-clutch your Ferrari during a test drive. How did the fishing rod industry deviate from otherwise simple fiscal logic? And why should it continue??

Having had the privilege to be included in the strategic discussions affecting rod warranty policies, I was informed about how these overly liberal guarantees were born. Overseas mass production enabled the unit cost per fishing rod to drop so dramatically that free replacements became a reality if the selling price was sufficiently high. Efficient manufacturing didn't reduce the cost to pennies on the rod but there was more than enough margin that would satisfy even the most conservative business model. Not only did "OTC" reduce, nearly eliminate the need for costly "warranty service centers", but for zero technical improvement, the marketers now had a "new" feature to assist sales, "a lifetime warranty" Much like the image of William "the fridge" Perry tying an Ugly Stik in a knot, rod companies were driving sales and brainwashing consumers through warranties rather than performance. Since this time, anglers everywhere believe it is their God given right to get a new fishing rod regardless of how it was broken. As previously stated a true defect especially in the rod blank will reveal itself very soon after purchase. Subsequently the standard 1-year warranty will provide more than enough consumer protection.

I have communicated the aforementioned message countless times in the past in an effort to encourage rod selection to be made on the merits of real performance. And despite having done so, I was confused by those anglers who elected to ignore the obvious and gravitate to the warm and fuzzy OTC teddy bear. Armed with this information how do you think a manufacturer can afford to continue to offer free replacements if those hard costs weren't built into the price??? For me it's only about performance, so much so that I have no choice but to question the quality of materials, technology and workmanship of those rods whose business models allow for OTC warranties.

Now which fishing rod do you want?


.
thanks for that interesting perspective. Sounds like you were a decision maker on this with Shimano?

I don't know if I'm simplistic or not, but I'm outright saying this new policy will have me looking differently at the over 200 dollar drop shot rod and over 200 dollar frog rod I was looking at puchasing this season to further advance my personal rod collection.

It doesn't have to be a "super unlimited no questions asked lifetime warranty" but if I am putting hundreds of dollars out for a rod I want more then a 1 year warranty, full stop. Even if they sold an "extended warranty option" at the time of initial purchase for 10-20 bucks, would that be so bad? It seems very short-sighted they keep increasing the costs of their rods while at the same time clawing back on the warranty.

It just seems like a company that has ALWAYS stood behind their product is very casually and quiety stepping to the side a little bit, and long-time and committed customers of Shimano will absolutely notice this, regardless of the aptitude level of the angler. Everyone understands the language of dollars and cents... especially when it's their own hard-earned dollars. Just my own personal two cents. And yes I realize even with my griping chances are I still end up purchasing a SHimano product.

What can I say, they got me "hooked" ;-)
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by lape0019 »

OAO,

This is exactly the reason I brought up Dobyns. If you break it by accident, you need to pay a fee to get it replaced. They haven't tacked on extra costs into the MSRP in order to alleviate the strain that may occur should they end up having everyone snap their rods to get the newest version.

Not to get too far off this topic, but if you are looking for rods to use for those techniques and want to try a Dobyns, I have a few recommendations should you want to PM me.

Ed,

I am glad Loomis brought back the expediter program. I am also kind of confused seeing as Shimano owns this company. I would think that both companies would use the same warranty policy but considering Loomis did away with their wildcard program to go back to the roots that made this brand so attractive leaves me a little confused.

Adam
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by StarTzar »

Paul Shibata wrote:
Now which fishing rod do you want?
Dobyns .... and get a Canon DSLR, they don't break like the Nikons. 8)

All joking aside, I purchase what I like regardless of warranty.
I have purchased many many many many fishing rods over the past 40 years and I never got one that had a manufacturers defect.
However, I broke the tip on one of my Dobyns. I don't know how it happened. It just happened.
I was happy that it only cost $60.00 for a replacement rod.

As previously mentioned so many times, a manufacturing defect will be apparent well within the year ... That is providing you are actually using the rod.
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by TheMaverick »

OutdoorActionOntario wrote:
The other beef I have is that every series of rod they bring out now is just more expensive than the previous line... yet they are tamping down their warranty obligations?
If anything they should stand behind their product more then ever if they truly believe in them, as they expect us to shell out more and more money for these more "advanced rods"... Hmmm.
Rod components are evolving constantly.
From proprietary resins to cross weaving fibbers.
Not to mention the use of scarce materials such as cork. We use cork in LEED projects at work because it’s 100% sustainable and renewable.
With the high demand of cork in various applications, no wonder the prices go up.
That is why you have seen the use of EVA handles introduced on many rod models over the past few years.

IMO, a lifetime warranty is an unsustainable warranty.
On the contrary, with the use of higher end components and stronger blanks, your inclination to purchasing a product based on warranty should be the less of your worries.

I think Shimano stands firmly behind their products, and this is portrayed in parallel to a 1 year warranty.

Within the same train of thoughts, many anglers are now exploring the Japanese Domestic Market for the sole purpose of a refined product.
The tighter tolerances and components are of far superior quality, in rods as in reels.
Once you order from Japan, it completely voids the warranty, whether it be 1, 3, 5 or limited year warranty.
With that being said, we still purchase JDM products.

I think this is one of many reasons why the American\Canadian based companies have been slowly integrating JDM models in their lineups, Shimano; Poison Adrena, Expride, Metanium, Abu; Revo LTX, ALT and Elite models.
Not to mention the implementation of Megabass America the subsidiary of Megabass.

As a result, IMO, you’ll see fewer companies offering Lifetime Warranties.
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by StarTzar »

TheMaverick wrote:
I think this is one of many reasons why the American\Canadian based companies have been slowly integrating JDM models in their lineups, Shimano; Poison Adrena, Expride, Metanium, Abu; Revo LTX, ALT and Elite models.

As a result, IMO, you’ll see fewer companies offering Lifetime Warranties.
You forgot the most important and best reel ever offered by Shimano ... The 2014 Calcutta Conquest 8)
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by TheMaverick »

StarTzar wrote:
TheMaverick wrote:
I think this is one of many reasons why the American\Canadian based companies have been slowly integrating JDM models in their lineups, Shimano; Poison Adrena, Expride, Metanium, Abu; Revo LTX, ALT and Elite models.

As a result, IMO, you’ll see fewer companies offering Lifetime Warranties.
You forgot the most important and best reel ever offered by Shimano ... The 2014 Calcutta Conquest 8)
I didn't include it, because I didn't see it as a refined product...I mean they ran out of material to finish off the knobs! What's up with that? hahahhahaaa 8)
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by ShawnD »

StarTzar wrote: a manufacturing defect will be apparent well within the year ... That is providing you are actually using the rod.
Hit the Nail on the head right there... Let's say I bought a cumura drop shot rod,( They're amazing ) I don't drop shot NEARLY as much as I frog or flip.. I would hate to break it after one year, I Would like to point out we don't get to fish ALL YEAR ROUND!! :| and the warranty expires..
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by toobinator »

Buy a $300.00 hockey stick and it's warrantied for 30 days. Break it within those 30 days and you get a new one...and your warranty's over. Break the new one and too bad. Fishing rods have set a precedent with the lifetime warranties that HAS to be changed. Shimano was the first to step up.

On a side note on warranties on rods not being used. I think the companies assume that if a rod is purchased it is going to be used. There is no way to tell how many casts or hooksets have been made with that rod before failure.

My brother in law bought a dishwasher from Sears a number of years ago. It sat in their foyer in the box for 1 1/2 years. When he finally installed it the washer was defective. Back to Sears....sorry, the 1 year warranty has expired. Pay for repair.

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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by plowjock »

Is there warranty on rod tips getting broken by ceiling fans?
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by Paul Shibata »

OutdoorActionOntario wrote: thanks for that interesting perspective. Sounds like you were a decision maker on this with Shimano?

I don't know if I'm simplistic or not, but I'm outright saying this new policy will have me looking differently at the over 200 dollar drop shot rod and over 200 dollar frog rod I was looking at puchasing this season to further advance my personal rod collection.

It doesn't have to be a "super unlimited no questions asked lifetime warranty" but if I am putting hundreds of dollars out for a rod I want more then a 1 year warranty, full stop. Even if they sold an "extended warranty option" at the time of initial purchase for 10-20 bucks, would that be so bad? It seems very short-sighted they keep increasing the costs of their rods while at the same time clawing back on the warranty.

It just seems like a company that has ALWAYS stood behind their product is very casually and quiety stepping to the side a little bit, and long-time and committed customers of Shimano will absolutely notice this, regardless of the aptitude level of the angler. Everyone understands the language of dollars and cents... especially when it's their own hard-earned dollars. Just my own personal two cents. And yes I realize even with my griping chances are I still end up purchasing a SHimano product.

What can I say, they got me "hooked" ;-)

I understand that as a loyal Shimano customer you may feel that you are having something of value taken away. This however should not be interpreted as Shimano's decision to no longer "stand behind their products". On the contrary, this new policy will enable them to eliminate the abusers of the system and further focus their efforts on those customers that may require legitimate support. The expectation of free replacements cannot be ignored when calculating the hard costs for each rod and as such those companies that continue to offer free replacements have merely built those monies into the selling price. I would suspect that when you purchase that expensive drop-shot rod or frog stick you will have an expectation of performance. The unfortunate reality is the $200 dollars which you worked hard for may only be purchasing a $100 dollar rod in terms of performance with $100 of insurance built into the price because they want you to believe that they stand behind their products. I will apologize in advance because I do not want to come across as being "snarky" but as I tried to demonstrate rod replacements cost money and someone has to pay for them.

I suspect that if any of us were to venture into the world of manufacturing, regardless of the product we would do so with pride and integrity. We would build those products with the greatest workmanship possible and integrate the finest components. We would then sell them to the stores for a fair mark-up which is generally between 20%-30%. Our pride in craftsmanship would encourage us to include a lifetime warranty against any manufacturing defect which is to say that we stand behind our products 150%. If something breaks and its either our fault or a defect then we will gladly replace it free of charge!! Fast forward 1 year and broken products are being returned on a regular basis with an expectation of free replacement. We would inspect and evaluate each returned product only to realize that most if not all were broken "accidentally" and certainly did not reflect poor workmanship or defective components. Now what??? Our selling price will not afford us to replace all of those broken products free of charge. So for year 2 we either change our warranty or create a new selling price which has factored in the returns.

Your loyalty to Shimano has not been wasted. They care every bit as much today as they did before. The same holds true for any company. You used St Croix as an example of a company which stands behind their products. They are an excellent American company with an impeccable history and reputation. The fact that they have very few "no-cost" returns for warranty reasons and that the gross majority of the customer returns associate a $50 or $75 dollar charge is not an indication of neglect on the part of St Croix. This is just their way of ensuring that you are purchasing a fine fishing rod and not a mediocre rod with a bunch of insurance.

In my lifetime of fishing I have seen less than 3 rods break as a function of a true defect in the graphite blank. More importantly all of those failures came on the very first outing. Graphite is similar to a piece of glass, a fault will present itself immediately. For those concerned about purchasing rods for less frequent techniques, my advise would be to fish the rods as soon as possible. If they didn't break then, a failure later in their lives was not a function of a defect.

Ultimately we decide where we spend our dollars. Spend your dollars wisely and you'll never be disappointed. For some, they may elect to purchase the rod with a liberal warranty policy which makes it the right rod for them. Others may be less concerned about the warranty and their purchases will reflect this accordingly.

For what it's worth, my inclusion in the warranty discussions took place years ago for G.Loomis, when Gary was still at the helm of his company. I certainly didn't have any affiliation with Shimano at the time of this new decision.
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by tbone1088 »

Ok so if this lifetime warranty is a bad business model and is unsustainable, why did they stick by it for so long? The timing seems a little "fishy" to me ;) I see some of your points about other products not having a lifetime warranty, but how many other high priced items go from 100 percent value to 0 so quickly??? I have 4 guitars, and each one I expect to sell at about the same price or a little less than what I bought them for. I could NEVER sell a nice rod for anywhere near the retail price, no one would buy it. Buying a expensive rod should be an investment, like buying guitars, since it's not, the lifetime warranty seems like a good idea to me to keep.
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by MichaelGA »

Economies of scale and intangible manufacturers qualities.

There are billions of fishing rods out there... most are crap. Having a warranty was a way to separate from the crowd.
Back when everyone was dropping a couple of bills on a rod - the companies could soak up the expense.
Now when everyone is looking for free rods and not buying as many new rods the companies can't.
The fat-lady has sung, TANSTAAFL and all that. Game Over Man. Game OVER>

Ever note that some guitars mainly hold value and don't go up while others become more precious as the 'absolute' number available in the world declines? I know my daughters plastic one will not be worth a penny in the end.

When fishing rods can be identifiable by casting feel alone - like some guitars can be identified by sound alone. You will start to see some fishing rods that hold value or actually increase.

You can't compare apples to oranges. Top of the line guitars aren't available in your average music store. Just as the best fishing rods aren't. Can I tell the difference in fishing rods... nope, but I still remember the first time I really heard a 'high' end guitar played by well skilled hands. It was a revelation, same as my first really high-end sound system paired with the highest fidelity recordings - amazing doesn't come close. (btw - those speakers are worth about 4 times what I payed for them now!)

In the west I don't think there is much of a market for the 'finest-of-the-finest' fishing gear. In countries where fishing is more exclusive ie. not everyone can do it you see a much more pronounced market segmentation. Look at the JDM stuff that we can't even buy here... why?

It's probably because the gear isn't the limiting factor it's the guy / gal reading the water, locating the fish, finding a pattern and then setting hooks.

(fwiw - I only own one Shimano rod, a convergence drop shotting rod. I love it. Hope I don't ever do it any stupid.)
(oh... btw the warranties is up... BUT if I went back to the local shop with a tear in my eye and broken rod in my hand, I bet they would give me a slight discount on a new one....)

IYHH - Ed says it's a good thing. 'nuff said.
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by tbone1088 »

I see your point michael about different guitars being worth more than others and that holding true for fishing rods, but with guitars when you buy one you eventually want to trade it in and get a better model. You can walk into a guitar shop with your old guitar and they will give you a trade in price then you get a better guitar. Fishing has yet to implement this kind of system. Probably because the majority of people feel uneasy about buying a used rod, whereas a used guitar is accepted. Whatever the reason, doesn't it seem a little unfair to us to pay for such a high priced item that COULD break without warning and have it become worthless when it does?
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Re: No more lifetime warranty on new Shimano rods

Post by cprince »

I certainly buy power and hand tools, luggage, cutlery, My Maglites, Pampered Chef pots and pans, Koss headphones, Tupperware, Zippos, Pelican guitar cases, Hair Trimmer, Dr. Martens, with lifetime warranties and most of them OTC.

This is WHY we buy them. The trade off is we pay a premium over and above what they are actually worth to design, make and market. It is a model that works for all the manufacturers I listed there off the top of my head... why not "High Quality" fishing equipment?

If all the rod manufacturers move to the non lifetime warranty model, I sure hope a governing body looks into any possible collusion.

As a consumer of these goods, it looks like some bean counter at Shimano thought that maybe Shimano Inc. "OTC: SHMDF" can do better for their shareholders rather than the measly $120 per share they are currently at rather than love their customers.

Just my $0.02

Craig
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