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guiding
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:34 am
by swampdonkey
Was curious if anyone had some input on guiding in the ottawa region I only know of a small amount of reputable guides that seem to always have their boats filled whenever I see them. So I would imagine that the demand for guides is high. I mean who doesn't like to go for a fish some I would imagine book trips for something new and some to learn some new spots or tricks of the trade. I would be willing to do multiple species as well as all year around trips, have all the equipment that would be required just would like some input/ advice would be appreciated
tight lines!
Re: guiding
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:03 am
by Yannick Loranger
PM sent.
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:26 am
by Trophyhunter
The first thing you need to do is get your SVOP certification cost - $638.00 , then go for MED-3 training and cert, cost -$ 215.00, take a st johns first aid course cost - $120.00 , register your vessel as commercial and get on the compliance program cost $75.00 go and get 10 million dollar liability insurance cost- $600.00 , and carry all the above paperwork with you on your vessel at all times , original copies not photo copies , Like the saying goes
" if you want to make a million dollars guiding , start with 2 million " , There is some leeway on the SVOP certification due to the sheltered waters act , but again this is one of those things that would be at the discretion of the investigating officer , and the most important thing of all catch fish and show your clients a good time
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:11 am
by toobinator
Every year I donate a day on the water to a couple of charity auctions. It can be a very tough day, especially with people that can't set a hook, pouty kids etc. As with many things, it is not as fun as it may seem on the surface, and I really don't have the temperment to do this more than once or twice a year. My advice (without knowing you) is to leave the guiding to those that are geared for it and enjoy your time on the water without pressure.
Ed
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:03 am
by Moosebunk
Trophyhunter wrote:The first thing you need to do is get your SVOP certification cost - $638.00
Aren't there 100's in Ontario to 1000's of guides across Canada without this; or anything like this? And being without, are they at this or any time liable to anything?
Trophyhunter wrote:then go for MED-3 training and cert, cost -$ 215.00, take a st johns first aid course cost - $120.00.
Are these courses mandatory and enforced by law, or just recommended?
Trophyhunter wrote:register your vessel as commercial and get on the compliance program cost $75.00.
I skimmed this...
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/oe ... -4416.html
And this basically said, every paid guide of any boat must comply. Appears to be the law.
Trophyhunter wrote:and get 10 million dollar liability insurance cost- $600.00
Recommended liability insurance, standard issue or actual law?
Asking all this because I know so many paid guides who likely have none of it. Totally understand why there's need for some, possibly all of it, but again, still know so many guides who have none of it... and likely never will. With what is actually noted above regarding SVOP, the registry and life-saving course requirements, are there any online resources for people to go and find out who exactly is qualified to be a guide? And with regards to insurance, would all clients being guided simply not be able to initial and sign waivers to release any guide of liability in the event of circumstances?
Appreciate your post Trophyhunter... and genuinely curious.
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:24 am
by Kerrazy
That little waiver, that is signed is frankly useless. Have a look at calypso water park. You actually use that
Park at YOUR own discretion, yet they are getting hammered in court currently due to law suits.
I am not say I agree/disagree with either side, yet all it takes is a client to slip on a slippery vessel floor and get injured, and you are toast! Let alone the kid that can't sit still and goes over board when a fish actually comes in the boat.
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:26 am
by Supernova224
I'll try to address what I can from reading TC's convoluted regulations and info pages. TrophyHunter may have a more complete answer though, as it seems he has experience in the matter. Check out these 2 links for more info:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/mp ... 52.htm#qt4
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/t ... u-1373.htm
The SVOP appears to only apply to fishing vessels over 5 gross tonnes. By extension, only vessels that require the operator to have an SVOP, require them to be MED-certified.
There is a requirement for the operator to have an approved 2-day First Aid training course, which I'm sure would be a good idea to have even if it weren't regulated.
As for insurance, not legally mandated, but definitely best-practice. In the case of a guide, they wouldn't need employer liability insurance, unless they're employing another person. They should, however, consider public liability insurance. This protects you in the case of being sued by a third party.
On the topic of waivers, you're really putting a lot of hope in a judge holding up that waiver, which they often don't. Generally, they are construed as only waiving the liability inherent in the activity being participated in. If negligence plays a part, that waiver won't protect you as a business owner.
Sorry for the long-winded response, hope that clears a few things up. Again, just my interpretation.
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:27 am
by RJ
I'm fully compliant to Transport Canada requirements, though I haven't taken part in the program as it's not required. The sticker program is voluntary. I'll ask for my sticker this year maybe, being in a few different boats every year is my issue so as long as it's all in order I am not concerned. Had TC at the house, they were great to deal with as they knew I wasn't a fly by nighter who trolls Kijiji for bookings.
TC is on the hunt for those that don't comply. The fines aren't pretty and they shouldn't be. You are 100% responsible for people the second they step on your boat. I don't need TC to tell me I need commercial insurance.
Ed touched upon it a bit, not everyone is built to be a guide. You can go out and catch fish on your own means absolutely squat. Creating opportunities for folks to succeed, enjoy themselves and then pose for a few photos for their memory banks is what it's all about.
RJ
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:18 am
by Trophyhunter
Moosebunk you are correct , it is now required , when i started guiding you could buy a guide licence from the MNR for around $25 bucks in 1989 i believe legislation was passed with new requirements , There is some confusion on the interpatiation of sheltered waters , i was told < less than 1 mile offshore, the information i received would relieve guides of the need for SVOP for small inland lakes but are still required to have the MED-3 training . I just completed the courses last week and they are very informative and most of the guys there were start up guides , If you have any questions you can contact Miller Marine Safety , they have all the requirements on line or contact Transport Canada Marine safety Division ,
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:49 pm
by Yannick Loranger
RJ wrote:I'm fully compliant to Transport Canada requirements, though I haven't taken part in the program as it's not required. The sticker program is voluntary. I'll ask for my sticker this year maybe, being in a few different boats every year is my issue so as long as it's all in order I am not concerned. Had TC at the house, they were great to deal with as they knew I wasn't a fly by nighter who trolls Kijiji for bookings.
TC is on the hunt for those that don't comply. The fines aren't pretty and they shouldn't be. You are 100% responsible for people the second they step on your boat. I don't need TC to tell me I need commercial insurance.
Ed touched upon it a bit, not everyone is built to be a guide. You can go out and catch fish on your own means absolutely squat. Creating opportunities for folks to succeed, enjoy themselves and then pose for a few photos for their memory banks is what it's all about.
RJ
^^^^ what he said. We don't sell fish, we sell an experience. Some days the fishing is phenomenal and in itself provides a great experience, and some days you better have some great stories to tell but most days are somewhere in between.
As for insurance, I'm a member of the Ontario Sportfishing Guides Association (OSGA) and get my commercial insurance through their group Policy and by default, their policy has 2mil liability. As for a 10mil policy, I suppose that's up to the guide's discretion.
Luckily for new guides TC has considerably streamlined the process for guides to get started up. It took me over a year to cut through all the red tape. My helper last year got it all done in 3 days. But as RJ mentioned, guides still need to be compliant with required safety gear and training. Not a cheap process, especially with life jackets retailing at $100 a piece if you're not lucky enough to get them on sale. Although not all guides are required to be registered for the compliance program, they still need to be compliant. Some guides have a blue sticker on their boat as proof of their participation in the compliance program, some don't, they don't need it, but EVERY guide's boat registration should start with a ''C'' and not ''ON'' or ''QC'' like what everyone is used to.
As RJ said, TC is actively seeking out those who are operating outside of the TC commercial framework. Like I always say, an ad on Kijiji makes you as much of a fishing guide as owning a wrench makes you a mechanic.
Yannick
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:09 pm
by Moosebunk
So in point-by-point the understanding is this...
SVOP - not required.
First Aid & CPR - not required but highly recommended.
TC Registration - mandatory... but the sticker program - whatever.
Insurance - best policy. Guessing a business registration would be needed for this.
Fishability - important.
Sociability - as important.
I had a day on the water with the Toobinator some years ago. From my WarCanoe to his F18 bass boat on busy Big Rideau weekend water, cutting through the Narrows at Murphy's Point was one of my more white knuckle experiences. Appreciated learning the art of the Senko that day though... and Ed your patience was OK.
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:40 pm
by toobinator
Actually Bunk it was a 21' boat, and I really didn't mean to scare you. Although that day was a competition of sorts, the social side was more important to I think both of us.
Next time I'll just idle.
Ed
Re: guiding
Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:55 pm
by Yannick Loranger
Marine First Aid : REQUIRED
Re: guiding
Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:55 am
by PunchRig
The svop is not req'd,but the MED A3 is now, not sure about marine med, the med a3, covers first aid ,man overboard,, hypothermia, and safety stuff, as well as fire prevention and fire fighting. Flareguns etc., commercial boat registration is mandatory, the blue decal program is optional, but a good idea, as it is a good checklist for yourself to always be compliant, and if approached by enforcement,may save you a boarding, insurance i've never heard of $10 mil mandatory,i carry 5, and 2 on my personal bassboat. Svop is for boats over 15m and big tonnage, and more geared to marine employees on ships,And basically out of the sight of land. Believe it or not, TC actually thinks that the PCOC is acceptable in some cases it trumps some of the older MED certifications. In the eyes of TC most small fishing charter boats are considered passenger boats as long as they carry under 12 paying passengers. I find it kinda' strange that the canadian shipping act isnt alot clearer in it's requirements, but is very in depth for large commercial vessels. I have a USCG 6 "pack", which required lotsa' apprenticeship/ sea time. Unlike a drivers license it is useless in canada, but is way more complex than a pcoc and a 1 day MED A3 course. I think the only thing that people can agree upon regarding TC rules and requirements, is to agree that nobody knows for sure what you actually need.
Re: guiding
Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:36 am
by john c
I got certified when they suggested it to ontario guides 4-5 years ago. This is how it was explained to me, if you are charged passengers to be on your boat you are considered a commercial passenger vessel.
TC registered - required for all commercial vessels, identification number starts with C instead of ON.
Med A3 - required for everyone working on commercial passenger vessel
Marine first aid - required for at least one person on board to be certified
Marine radio operator license - if vessel equipped wit VHF radio
Commercial Insurance - min of 1 million liability ( I think)
Svop - required if possibility of 2 nautical miles off shore. This is the tricky one as most inland lakes and rivers are less than 4 nautical miles from shore to shore and therefor svop not required. The problem here is that as a commercial vessel you are still required to follow the guidelines outlined in svop (monthly inspections,man overboard drills,...) which are dated and signed.
I believe these are the certification required to be a guide, although things might have changed as I was certified a while ago. The real issue with becoming a guide is that transport canada does not have any distinction for a fishing guide and we get lumped into the same group as larger commercial boats.
As far as being a guide, it's not for everyone. If you spend enough time on the water you have your good and bad days, and adding stress to fishing sometimes just isn't worth it.