Ethics & Legalities

[Todd B.]

There is a dicussion on another board w.r.t. the ethics and legality of the Moffitt System and I thought it might generate an interesting discussion her on FH.

After reading their description on how the system works, and looking at the picture provided (Note: the fish is hooked from the outside of the jaw), do you consider this to be legal or not?

[almontefisher]

Where this can get tricky is the term they use for snagging. By the looks of the pics in the thread you posted it looks like the fish is hooked in the lip which is legal. Now if the hook grabs a fin, or anything elese then it is a snagged fish and should not be legal. This is a very good thread for sure...Like to see more responses on this. I can see where you will snag a fish more often then not so I do not know if I would use this system.

[bradford2]

Interesting for sure. I said Legal. I wouldn't call it snagging.

While the hook still will end up outside of the mouth the fish is still trying to eat the bait.........

Plus it looks like there is no way for the fish to swallow the bait, or get deep hooked or anything like that........ a plus IMO.

[Super]

If you do this with a spinning rod it is considered snagging.
Placing the weight at the end of the line and with a hook part way up and fishing a small salmon river, then have a salmon run into your line with an open mouth, it is definitely snagging.
If you are using a floating line and fly, and not for salmon, maybe not so bad, but I stiill say snagging.
Super.

[Todd B.]

I will have to send this question down to the NY DEC to get their response. My guess is that they would consider it to be lining/flossing. One thing to note is the difference in the wording of the NY regs and the Ontario regs.

In NY the reg stipulates that is legal only if it is "in the mouth", whereas in ontario it is worded as foul hooked "anywhere other than the mouth". Just one of probably a number of grey areas within the MNR regs.

Reply from NY DEC is pending.

[Buckshot]

I will get into this one, I did a bit of research on the web and this is what I found.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/ShowFullDo ... 7-237///en

the link above is to the full text of the Ontario Fishery Regulations.

The following section look like they apply but it is just my interpretation i am sure we all look at things different.

It would appear that the lelgislation is written based on the intent of what you are doing:

Ontario Fishery Regulations, 2007

INTERPRETATION


1. (1) The following definitions apply in these Regulations.
"snagger" means an instrument that is designed for the purpose of hooking or piercing a fish in any part of the body other than the mouth.

Prohibited Fishing Methods and Gear


9. (1) No person shall fish with


(a) a hook used in such a manner as to pierce or hook a fish in any part of the body other than the mouth;



(b) a gaff;



(c) a snare;



(d) a snagger; or



(e) a spear gun.



(2) Despite paragraph (1)(b), a person may use a gaff, other than a spring gaff, to assist in the landing of a fish.

I am going to say based on what i am reading and what i am seeing on the web site that the technique is legal as the intent and purpose is to hook the fish in the mouth.

Just my thoughts

[Rybren]

It's an interesting technique. As to whether it's legal, I have no idea.

There's something about it that makes me feel like it's wrong, but I can't say for sure why. I guess that it strikes me as being a form of lining and not really fly fishing. (not that I'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination)

On NY's Salmon River at Pulaski, you can't have a weight below the hook. Since this system appears to be weightless, then I guess that it's okay on that count. As Todd mentioned, in NY, the hook has to be IN the mouth. By that measure, I'd be willing to bet that that most fish hooked using this system would be foul hooked.

[Todd B.]

Since I don't have access to a Flash player from my daytime computer I just had a look at the their video illustrating how the circle hook works in the Moffitt system. Still questionable in my books.

I'm looking forward to the responses from the MNR and DEC.

[slop]

I'd like to hear what the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources has to say about this. A copied reply will do just fine. I did not vote in the poll above.

[Prairieboy]

There is not a lot of difference between this setup and other lures. In this case the attractor and hook are just spread out differently. The MNR rules are hooked by the mouth and the regulations do not stipulate inside or outside. Do the NY Regs say "in the mouth: or "Inside the Mouth" ? Maybe just semantics but could sway the legalise either way.

My question when it comes to ethics is: Does the fish bite the attractor (ie. fly hair or spoon) or the hook? The answer is fly. When comparing them swallowing a standard setup with hook and getting deep hooked to the Moffitt System this method definately will increase the chance of a good CnR. On top of that the circle hook allows for a good hookup without the need of barbed hooks so so less harm to the fish yet again. Compare this method to using a barbed fly and/or a spoon and treble setup and the fish are exponentially better off.

Flossing is a matter of chance using heavy leaders, brutal hooks and hoping for an open mouth. Flossing does not require an intentional bite and is used for targetting schooled and/or spawning fish so this method is very different.

My vote is all for it as I feel this is not snagging or flossing (legally or ethically) as the fish has to take the bait/attractor in its mouth before a hookup can occur. It is the hook setting action that allows the line to slip and the hook to set into the mouth of the fish. If the fish does not intentionally bite the fly the circle hooks will just float around harmlessly.

I would really like to hear the MnR side of it but based on the written regs, I cannot see how they would be able to argue against this method.

Cheers,
Prairieboy

[Todd B.]

Praireboy,

I'm all for C&R and favour circle hooks for a number of situations, especially live bait fishing. I agree that there are obvious semantic differences between the MNR and DEC regs, and flossing was something the DEC was cracking down on.

With respect to your question, their video on "How our hook works" illustrates how their system is intended to work. The way they present it is that the fish takes the fly (with the hook being outside of the fishes mouth. The fisherman subsequently sets the hook (i.e. pulls the fly out of the fish's mouth, causing the line to slide through and the hook to engage on the outside of the jaw.

I don't really have a problem if the fish actually takes the fly. Unfortunately this system can be easily abused, especially when fishing for salmon. By using an easily visible fly you can easily work the fline (i.e. line) across the open mouth of a stationary salmon to subsequently result in a hookup. (i.e. flossing/lining).

[Razor]

I think snagging is when you throw your line in and yank on it hoping you will hook a fish anywhere. I have no problem with this system if it is as it says. You attract a fish and hook it in or outside the mouth. I'm sure lots of fisherman who use lures like rapalas have hooked fish in strange places often, I know I have.

[bradford2]

I don't really have a problem if the fish actually takes the fly. Unfortunately this system can be easily abused, especially when fishing for salmon. By using an easily visible fly you can easily work the fline (i.e. line) across the open mouth of a stationary salmon to subsequently result in a hookup. (i.e. flossing/lining).

Any legal and perfectly ethical system can be abused. (Not saying this system is or isn't).

Seriously though..... you could probably snag a Sturgeon with a Flipping Jig if you really wanted to

[Doug]

Looks legal to me, here in Ontario.

When I did a lot of steelheading, I knew three guys that could catch a river steelhead or salmon (if they could see the fish) pretty much whenever they chose to do so, by drifting a standard presentation (roe bag, yarn fly, Michigan wiggler, whatever) past the fish and timing it so the hook would go into the mouth, immediate hookset, fish on. They called it "lifting." They were exceptionally talented anglers who used amazing tackle and techniques, and this was just a "show-off" thing they did. It was of course perfectly legal, but all three of them considered it to be snagging. Finesse snagging, but they all agreed it should be considered illegal. I watched one guy show me this, hooking and then unhooking the same fish TWICE on the same drift.....at will. BTW those guys did not keep their fish, they all released them. They used to beat up on me when I kept a nice fresh steelhead for the table......... But I had to work ten times as hard as them to catch one in the first place!

So a talented angler can basically hook a visible fish in the mouth with spinning (or float) gear, and this Moffit system basically would allow a fly angler to do a similar thing on a fly line. The Moffit system has the advantage of only watching one item (the fly) instead of two items (bait and mouth), if the fly disappears set the hook. I suggest the spinning/float angler who is "lifting" fish is not acting ethically, but the Moffit fly angler is "probably" acting ethically unless the INTENT is to lift the fish as opposed to having the fish strike the fly.

But none of those folks would be found guilty of an offence here in Ontario, since the fish is hooked by the mouth. That's the way I see it.

Doug

[Todd B.]

It's an interesting discussion. Seems it's a tough on for the MNR as well. It's being passed up the chain of command for clarification. It's currently been raised past the COs to the Regional Branch Advisor.