Just recieved my copy of Ontario Out of Doors today. Good article on page 14 about the ethanol/gasoline blend by Jeff Helsdon.
Here is a short exert from the article:
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Boat owners should be cautious when they pull up to the pumps to buy gasoline this spring.
Since January 01, Ontario fuel manufacturers have been required to have an average of 10% ethanol blend in gasoline. While ethanol is not expected to cause problems with ATV's and snowmobiles, it attracts water and can result in water in the fuel systems of boats, especially if a boat is idle for a long time.
With this in mind, industry experts advise boaters to keep fuel tanks full, as partially filled tanks can allow moisture-laden air into them to potentially cause problems. Ethanol can also damage some older fibreglass fuel tanks and other system components, they say. Another potential hazard is that ethanol's cleaning ability can loosen debris in fuel tanks or lines, possibly clogging filters.
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The article suggests that owners check with the manufactures of their motors to see if they are ethanol compatible or if there may be problems with using ethanol blend. Gaskets and some rubber fuel system components may be affected.
Watch the blend!
Great tip! I will look for one.
mdej wrote:Good reminder for everyone to ensure they have an inline fuel/water separator.
Not sure if thats the official name but I have one from my 6gallon can to the motor and I drain it at least 1 time each season.
Don't think I'm getting enough water to cause harm but better safe then sorry.
Most manuals seem to say this. Even the service manuals.Viper wrote:Hi Pints
I run a 2001 Merc 4St 40hp. My owner's manual clearly states do not use Ethanol. I have sent an email to Mercury Marine.
Will post their reply - if I get one.
However I don't know where a guy finds fuel without Ethanol in it. Its regulated that our fuel must contain a certain % of it.
If marine engine manufactures don't accept this we will all be off buying 3$ per liter black market marine fuel.
Here is the full article by Jeff Helsdon from the April issue of Ontario Out of Doors:
===============================================
Boat owners should be cautious when they pull up to the pumps to buy gasoline this spring.
Since January 01, Ontario fuel manufacturers have been required to have an average of 10% ethanol blend in gasoline. While ethanol is not expected to cause problems with ATV's and snowmobiles, it attracts water and can result in water in the fuel systems of boats, especially if a boat is idle for a long time.
With this in mind, industry experts advise boaters to keep fuel tanks full, as partially filled tanks can allow moisture-laden air into them to potentially cause problems. Ethanol can also damage some older fibreglass fuel tanks and other system components, they say. Another potential hazard is that ethanol's cleaning ability can loosen debris in fuel tanks or lines, possibly clogging filters.
Although mandatory ethanol content is new in Ontario, it has been required in some American states for years and was available in some brands of gas here.
Most newer engines were manufactured to run with up to 10% ethanol in gasoline. Problems are more likely with older engines. Art Poirier of Bombardier Recreational Products (manufacturers of Evinrude and Johnson outboards) advises boaters to keep an eye on gaskets in old motors.
And, experts at Mercury Marine advise that pre-1980's engines could have problems with some rubber fuel-system components.
Overall, different brands started manufacturing engines that were made to run with ethanol in different time frames, so check with the manufacturer or dealer about your particular engine.
Paul Hutson of Maple City Marine in Chatham (a Mercury-Bombardier, and Yamaha dealer) hasn't seen any problems from ethanol-blend fuels, and he's certain some of his customers have been using it. "We haven't had any running issues because of ethanol at the moment. Whether we will in the future is hard to tell".
He does, however, advise customers to stay away from stations that pump gasoline blends with more than 10% ethanol.
Since the madatory ethanol content is an average, there 's a possibilty marinas might be able to sell fuel without ethanol. If you have concerns, ask staff at your marina what fuel mix they're pumping.
===============================================
Boat owners should be cautious when they pull up to the pumps to buy gasoline this spring.
Since January 01, Ontario fuel manufacturers have been required to have an average of 10% ethanol blend in gasoline. While ethanol is not expected to cause problems with ATV's and snowmobiles, it attracts water and can result in water in the fuel systems of boats, especially if a boat is idle for a long time.
With this in mind, industry experts advise boaters to keep fuel tanks full, as partially filled tanks can allow moisture-laden air into them to potentially cause problems. Ethanol can also damage some older fibreglass fuel tanks and other system components, they say. Another potential hazard is that ethanol's cleaning ability can loosen debris in fuel tanks or lines, possibly clogging filters.
Although mandatory ethanol content is new in Ontario, it has been required in some American states for years and was available in some brands of gas here.
Most newer engines were manufactured to run with up to 10% ethanol in gasoline. Problems are more likely with older engines. Art Poirier of Bombardier Recreational Products (manufacturers of Evinrude and Johnson outboards) advises boaters to keep an eye on gaskets in old motors.
And, experts at Mercury Marine advise that pre-1980's engines could have problems with some rubber fuel-system components.
Overall, different brands started manufacturing engines that were made to run with ethanol in different time frames, so check with the manufacturer or dealer about your particular engine.
Paul Hutson of Maple City Marine in Chatham (a Mercury-Bombardier, and Yamaha dealer) hasn't seen any problems from ethanol-blend fuels, and he's certain some of his customers have been using it. "We haven't had any running issues because of ethanol at the moment. Whether we will in the future is hard to tell".
He does, however, advise customers to stay away from stations that pump gasoline blends with more than 10% ethanol.
Since the madatory ethanol content is an average, there 's a possibilty marinas might be able to sell fuel without ethanol. If you have concerns, ask staff at your marina what fuel mix they're pumping.
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mikemicropterus
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ethanol fuels
:DThis is the type of disinformation that is rampant these days and gets even more blown out of poportion by uneducated outdoor writers.
Ever since I have been working on marine engines, 1985 the fuel you have been burning has had some alcohol in it. Thsta why the need for gas line anti-freeze has decreased. Since 1990 the fuel companies have stated that their fuel may contain up to 10% of ethanol.
Sinice I have been working on outboards the manufacturers, Johnson/Evinrude, Merc, etc have been adjusting to the amount of alcohol in the fuel.
The idea of keeping the tank full is bullsh&*, when gas can loose up to 2 points on it's octane rating after a week in an open container the thouight of running dregraded fuel through an engine makes me cringe. The lack of perfomance and the added deposit from incomplete burn is way worse over the long run then having a small amount of condesation in the tank.
Now lets look at the problem, alcohol absorbs water so the fuel will absorb a small amount of water and will pass through fuel system and be burnt easily by the engine and a small decrease in performance maybe noticed. Do you not think this happens in a car with a steel gas tank in the spring. Think of the temperature difference below freezing in the morning and 5 to 10 degrees by noon, these conditions will produce more condensation than will occur in a PLASTIC marine fuel tank during the summer or fall.
The debate is between ethanol and alcohol. Both are being used to-day and IT IS FUEL WITH MORE THAN 10% ETHANOL not alcohol. What has happend is the fuel companies used to put MTBE in the fuel to maintain octane. This chemical was starting tio show up in the drinking water in California. Making it's way through the filtration process, now no reports of problems occurred but there are alot of enviromentalists in Claifornia. So the quest to find a substitute was needed and alcohol and ethanol were chosen.
By 1990 an outboard engine produced in N.A. was designed to run on 5% ethanol fuel and 10% alcohol fuel. The engines these days have special materials in the engine and fuel system to accept both these types of fuel.
Now the problem that is arising these days is with older than 1985 engines that are not designed to run with any alcohol or ethanol in the fuel. Fuel lines degrade and the gaskets swell and after a while decompose.
The problem I am seeing is with poorly winterized engines, especially the fuel system. If you take fuel with MTBE in it, there is still some out there, let it go bad and then mix clean fuel with alcohol in it you will get whta is called phase separation. The additives in the fuel precipitate out and form a sand like substance in the float bowl or fuel resevoir mostly all fuel injected engines have to-day. Obviuosly this will block fuel circuits and can lean out the engine and make it go BOOM.
What is the solution??????
Fuel/water separators are a good idea and need to be serviced and changed yearly. The alcohol/ehtnaol will rust the filter after a couple of years, leading to problems.
Use good name brand fuels, the larger gas compnies do put more additives in their fuel than say suny's or mr gas etc and the fuel will be more stable.
Don't fill your tank before you go out, only put in as much fuel as you are going to need for that trip. Remember gas will degrade and loose octane points in a week, so what is worse using an 85 octane fuel when the manufacturer recommneds 87 octane, as oppossed to a small amount of water, which will be put into suspension and will be burnt by the engine.
I really have not seen this as a problem, whatb the issue with the fuel companies is the irrregular fluctuation of pricing. The price of crude to-day if this was 3 yeras ago would be around the 80 cent level, but the fuel coomanies have devised this method of increasing prices through speculation and if Kimwhatshis face in Norht Korea has diarrhea the price of gas goes up, BULSH*(*.
With the price based on world events and the speculators setting prices this is the only industry that bases it's prices on "could have beens".
We are sitting back and saying I don't like it and it seems there is nothing that can be done. The goverment does nothing to help th consumer because it is not in their best interests, tax revenues.
Now if we all bought high gas mileage cars and changed driving habits we could decrease the amount of fuel each person used by 10 5 and if the fuel companies saw a 10% decrease in the sales of gas they would do take notice.
The industry is in for a large shake-up as the fuel companies are starting to change their phlosophy. They are selling their refineries and getting out ot the refining business and concentrating on exploration and well drilling only. There is a company now quietly buying up the oil companies refineries and that is all this company is going to do refine oil into products such as gas. When this company gets a monopoly what and see what the price of gas will be. We have seen this past month the sad state that some fuel companies are in, loose a refinery and there is no safety net for the consumer and the industry is so volatile that this one refinery fire can push up prices and cause lack of supply. Geuss what would happen if there was a terrorist attack, I'd hate to see what happens to prices after that, $2.00 per liter.
Anyway guys the sky is not falling and once again chicken little blew it all out of poportion.
So if my tank is empty, there will be little or no condesation, if the tank is full or near full, what I'm supposed to fill it after I have gone boating for the day sounds backward to me, and then let that sit for a week. That will cause more condensation BUT like I stated earlier the fuel will have started to degrade. I have a 35 gallon tank ini my boat. The engine has a fuel resevoir that is a fuel vapor separator, also before the fuel goes into the resevoir it passes through a water separator filter and a sensor in the filter tells set off the warning horn if the filter gets too much water in it.
I have only filled my tank once and before I go out I only put enough gas in to get me through the day. I change the filter once a year and I have not to this day found a large amount of water in the filter.
In fact the boats that come in with water in the gas, the water is in the fuel tank because of the way the vent is positioned or the owner got a bad load of gas from a dirty 5 gallon container or the gas station they filled up at has a problem. Usually it's the 5 gallon container.
I'm not sayin you should not be carefull but this is not a NEW problem and is being addressed . Remember that the gas you burn in your outboard was designeed for a car usage not marine usage.
I don't know of an engines built to-day that are not desgned to run on up to 10% alcohol and 5% ethanol.
Look at the pump and most say alcohol a few will say ethanol but I have not seen one that says up to 10% ethanol but I could be wrong. I just haven't seen it, yet.
Ever since I have been working on marine engines, 1985 the fuel you have been burning has had some alcohol in it. Thsta why the need for gas line anti-freeze has decreased. Since 1990 the fuel companies have stated that their fuel may contain up to 10% of ethanol.
Sinice I have been working on outboards the manufacturers, Johnson/Evinrude, Merc, etc have been adjusting to the amount of alcohol in the fuel.
The idea of keeping the tank full is bullsh&*, when gas can loose up to 2 points on it's octane rating after a week in an open container the thouight of running dregraded fuel through an engine makes me cringe. The lack of perfomance and the added deposit from incomplete burn is way worse over the long run then having a small amount of condesation in the tank.
Now lets look at the problem, alcohol absorbs water so the fuel will absorb a small amount of water and will pass through fuel system and be burnt easily by the engine and a small decrease in performance maybe noticed. Do you not think this happens in a car with a steel gas tank in the spring. Think of the temperature difference below freezing in the morning and 5 to 10 degrees by noon, these conditions will produce more condensation than will occur in a PLASTIC marine fuel tank during the summer or fall.
The debate is between ethanol and alcohol. Both are being used to-day and IT IS FUEL WITH MORE THAN 10% ETHANOL not alcohol. What has happend is the fuel companies used to put MTBE in the fuel to maintain octane. This chemical was starting tio show up in the drinking water in California. Making it's way through the filtration process, now no reports of problems occurred but there are alot of enviromentalists in Claifornia. So the quest to find a substitute was needed and alcohol and ethanol were chosen.
By 1990 an outboard engine produced in N.A. was designed to run on 5% ethanol fuel and 10% alcohol fuel. The engines these days have special materials in the engine and fuel system to accept both these types of fuel.
Now the problem that is arising these days is with older than 1985 engines that are not designed to run with any alcohol or ethanol in the fuel. Fuel lines degrade and the gaskets swell and after a while decompose.
The problem I am seeing is with poorly winterized engines, especially the fuel system. If you take fuel with MTBE in it, there is still some out there, let it go bad and then mix clean fuel with alcohol in it you will get whta is called phase separation. The additives in the fuel precipitate out and form a sand like substance in the float bowl or fuel resevoir mostly all fuel injected engines have to-day. Obviuosly this will block fuel circuits and can lean out the engine and make it go BOOM.
What is the solution??????
Fuel/water separators are a good idea and need to be serviced and changed yearly. The alcohol/ehtnaol will rust the filter after a couple of years, leading to problems.
Use good name brand fuels, the larger gas compnies do put more additives in their fuel than say suny's or mr gas etc and the fuel will be more stable.
Don't fill your tank before you go out, only put in as much fuel as you are going to need for that trip. Remember gas will degrade and loose octane points in a week, so what is worse using an 85 octane fuel when the manufacturer recommneds 87 octane, as oppossed to a small amount of water, which will be put into suspension and will be burnt by the engine.
I really have not seen this as a problem, whatb the issue with the fuel companies is the irrregular fluctuation of pricing. The price of crude to-day if this was 3 yeras ago would be around the 80 cent level, but the fuel coomanies have devised this method of increasing prices through speculation and if Kimwhatshis face in Norht Korea has diarrhea the price of gas goes up, BULSH*(*.
With the price based on world events and the speculators setting prices this is the only industry that bases it's prices on "could have beens".
We are sitting back and saying I don't like it and it seems there is nothing that can be done. The goverment does nothing to help th consumer because it is not in their best interests, tax revenues.
Now if we all bought high gas mileage cars and changed driving habits we could decrease the amount of fuel each person used by 10 5 and if the fuel companies saw a 10% decrease in the sales of gas they would do take notice.
The industry is in for a large shake-up as the fuel companies are starting to change their phlosophy. They are selling their refineries and getting out ot the refining business and concentrating on exploration and well drilling only. There is a company now quietly buying up the oil companies refineries and that is all this company is going to do refine oil into products such as gas. When this company gets a monopoly what and see what the price of gas will be. We have seen this past month the sad state that some fuel companies are in, loose a refinery and there is no safety net for the consumer and the industry is so volatile that this one refinery fire can push up prices and cause lack of supply. Geuss what would happen if there was a terrorist attack, I'd hate to see what happens to prices after that, $2.00 per liter.
Anyway guys the sky is not falling and once again chicken little blew it all out of poportion.
So if my tank is empty, there will be little or no condesation, if the tank is full or near full, what I'm supposed to fill it after I have gone boating for the day sounds backward to me, and then let that sit for a week. That will cause more condensation BUT like I stated earlier the fuel will have started to degrade. I have a 35 gallon tank ini my boat. The engine has a fuel resevoir that is a fuel vapor separator, also before the fuel goes into the resevoir it passes through a water separator filter and a sensor in the filter tells set off the warning horn if the filter gets too much water in it.
I have only filled my tank once and before I go out I only put enough gas in to get me through the day. I change the filter once a year and I have not to this day found a large amount of water in the filter.
In fact the boats that come in with water in the gas, the water is in the fuel tank because of the way the vent is positioned or the owner got a bad load of gas from a dirty 5 gallon container or the gas station they filled up at has a problem. Usually it's the 5 gallon container.
I'm not sayin you should not be carefull but this is not a NEW problem and is being addressed . Remember that the gas you burn in your outboard was designeed for a car usage not marine usage.
I don't know of an engines built to-day that are not desgned to run on up to 10% alcohol and 5% ethanol.
Look at the pump and most say alcohol a few will say ethanol but I have not seen one that says up to 10% ethanol but I could be wrong. I just haven't seen it, yet.
Re: ethanol fuels
mikemicropterus wrote::Look at the pump and most say alcohol a few will say ethanol but I have not seen one that says up to 10% ethanol but I could be wrong. I just haven't seen it, yet.
One gasd station that I usually fill up at near the US border says that on the regular grade fuel, but not on the premium. I usually fill it up with the premium cause it is always 7-9 cents cheaper than the regular anywhere else because of its proximity to the US border.
DH
At the risk of sounding stupid I will post this question.
If fuel looses octane in a week then aren't we better off to fill up with high octane instead of regular?
I, like others, do go thru the full tank half full tank scenarios because I for one could never know in advance how much fuel I will use on an outting. Sometimes I hit my spots and they produce fish so I stay where I am am sometimes my spots do not produce fish so I move to another, maybe once or maybe more.
After reading mikemicropterus post it is obvious to me I will need some strategy, what this will be I have no idea.
If fuel looses octane in a week then aren't we better off to fill up with high octane instead of regular?
I, like others, do go thru the full tank half full tank scenarios because I for one could never know in advance how much fuel I will use on an outting. Sometimes I hit my spots and they produce fish so I stay where I am am sometimes my spots do not produce fish so I move to another, maybe once or maybe more.
After reading mikemicropterus post it is obvious to me I will need some strategy, what this will be I have no idea.
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meanmuskie
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mikemicropterus
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lets put this puppy to bed
I made a mistake, ya I know mark this day on your calendar.Where I said alcohol read METHANOL>
The best scenario is to use fuel stabilizer with your fuel.
NOT octane booster
Now if you use premium in an engine designed for 87 octane fuel you can and may notice a decrease of perfomance.
WHY??????????????????//
LESS HYDROCARBONS in the fuel. Thats what good 2 stroke oil has in it to make it cleaner burning extra HYDROGEN the stuff that made the Hindenburg light up.
If I have premium fuel I need to remove hydrocabons to allow me to put more of the stuff that stop this fuel from pre-igniting under compression. Premium fuel is designed to go bang at a higher compression rato than regular and it does this by adding most these days METHANOL and they don't have to say anythinhg. Usually there is a water/fuel separating filter evident on the pump. Look for it where the hose connects to the pump. So in premium fuel the if they need 5% more octane increasing additives they must remove fuel thus less hydrogen per volume. So using premium fuel is not solving the issue. That can be done by adding fuel stabilizer.
I fill my tank with only the fuel I think I am going to need for the day or weekend and in the fall starting in October I put fuel satbilizer in everytime I refuel. This is because I don't know when the last time I will get out and want the fuel to be stable in case we get a freak snow storm and the ice comes fast, my fuel system will be already for winterized.
I am just as anal about pumps to I usually use the same pump and gas stations. Rarely will I go to the non corporate connected gas stations. Mostly because they will ask for less additives when they get their fuel blended at the depot. If you live in Ottawa and take a drive past Shells depot on Hunt Club you will see all sorts of non shell trucks coming and going and the difference is the additive package each company uses.
I have even seen esso trucks coming out of the shell depot. I like shell, ultramar, rarely do I use esso, mr.gas, drummonds,pioneer and used to
use exclusively sunoco, I like mceween and use petro-canada alot lately.
I put at least 2 tanks of ethanol fuel through the motor each year to eliminate the presence of water in the tank in the boat. I have not experienced any problems with fuel system degredation thus far.
So my recommendation is use the fuel the manufacturer recommends and the proper octane rating. If you are not going to consume all the fuel in the tank within the next couple of weeks use fuel stabilizer to minimise octane loss. Using premium will not produce the same effect. Using octane boost is not recommended as this is adding extra additives that may not blend well with the additives already in the fuel and when the fuel degrdes you will be left with more additves than fuel. Thus more deposits for the enigne.
Fuel and octane come down to thermo-dynamics and an 87 octane motor does not produce the thermo-dymnamics it takes to utilise a 92 octane fuel.
I'm going to get more info on this subject and revisit my service bulletins but be assured they have to label the pump if they have METHANOL OR ETHANOL in the fuel.