outboard engine again

[mlamothe]

An outboard question for you?

i know Yamaha owns Mercury. So is a Mercury engine really a Yamaha?

Susuki is supposed to be one of the best 4 strokes and Suzuki makes the Johnson 4 stroke right? Do you know for how many years and what sizes?

Honda and BRP are on there own as far as i know.

Can you tell i am planning on buying a new rig in the next few months.

Thanks.

Mark

[CNs]

Mercury Marine is 2.3 billion dollar division of Brunswick corporation.


They use Yamaha i powerheads for specific models


Evinrude uses suzuki powerheads for some of thier models.



Johnson is owned by BRP as part of thier purchase of OMC



hope this helps.

[JP]

Norm is right Merc is a division of Bruswick whick also owns Lund, Crestliner, Lowe, Princecraft and a few others.
Yamaha has been making the power head for 25-200hp 4 stroke engines for merc untill 2007. Merc now produces most of thier own product. The 2hp-15hp are made by a company from Japan called Thatsu.

Yamaha is the largest engine manufacture in the world.

BRP did buy the rights to OMC when they went belly up in 1999 and own the name Evinrude and Johnson.
All Jonson 4 strokes from 1999 to present are mande by Suzuki for BRP. 25hp is the largest size 4stroke manufactured under the Johnson name as of 2007 so that they can promote the E tec line.

Honda is just Honda.

When you are looking for a new engine specifically 4 stroke keep this in mind. Everyone makes a good product but the Japanies companies tend to be the most durable with the least amount of recals or claims.
Suzuki
Honda
Yamaha

Merc does make a good product and are easy to work on with available parts and the most dealers servicing them.

As for the 2 stroke market. Well I am a Yamaha fan but the Mercury Optimax is a good engine with a good warranty and lots of selection when it comes to props.

BRP Etec makes a good product, but I would stay away from anything under 90hp since there is a vibration isue with the 40, 50 60 hp and lots of recalls on them.

Yamaha does not produce a 2 stroke under 150hp in the Canadian market anymore. The VZ HPDI engines are amazing and cheeper to run than anything else.

Hope this helps and if you need more info give me a shout.
Cheers
JP

[eye-tracker]

The VZ HPDI engines are amazing and cheeper to run than anything else.

They also do not come in a long shaft model for all the 25" transom walleye and bay boats.

-s

[JP]

True but their 4 stroke models do.

Cheers
JP

[mlamothe]

This is a crazy business... thank you for the great feedback on who owns who, and who really builds the engines.

I was looking at the Tracker at Bass Pro shop on Monday. The salesman did not recommend the regular Merc two stroke and suggested the Optimax or 4 stroke instead.

That place is amazing.........bigger that i ever though possible.

My engine preference would be 2 stroke but i do like the Yamaha 4 stoke as well. It is very difficult to order some boats (like lund) without a Merc.

Mark

[JP]

I would not purchase the older 2 stroke from any company. Because of EPA (environmental Protection Agency) this older technoligy is no longer being produced and do not meet the emissions standards. They are non current engins and though they will save you a little, they will cost you in oil and fuel consumtion.
As of 2007 no 2 stroke carborated engines are allowed to be produced for the Canadian market so these engines are 2006 or 2005. Mercury over produced some of these models and there is a surplus of them on the market for sale now.


Just remember that all manufacturers make a good product so you should be good no matter what you purchase.
Cheers
JP

[eye-tracker]

JP,
Can you direct me to this 2 stroke legislation in Canada? If this is the case I feel chain saws, snow mobiles, jets skis, lawn mowers, ice augers and motor cycles would have to meet the same legislation.

Thanks in advance for the details as this is important information. I always like to read up on new Canadian laws that protect the environment.

-sheldon

[JP]

Sheldon it only applies to the outboards being sold in Canada and apply to the Emissions standards act for outboard engines and the 2006 and 2010 standards. That is why there is no carborated 2 strokes since they do not meet the strict emissions standard wether it be Merc, Yamaha, or Evinrude.
It is not a problem to sell or own one but to produce them for the Canadian market.

JP

[CNs]

Sheldon it only applies to the outboards being sold in Canada and apply to the Emissions standards act for outboard engines and the 2006 and 2010 standards. That is why there is no carborated 2 strokes since they do not meet the strict emissions standard wether it be Merc, Yamaha, or Evinrude.
It is not a problem to sell or own one but to produce them for the Canadian market.

JP

JP can you post the URL's to this legislation. The only documentation I found is that the Cepa regulations for marine engines will follow the US EPA certificate of conformity for engines sold concurrently in Canada and the U.S.

It makes no direct mention of carborated (EFI) engines regardless of 2 vs 4 stroke. It does mention averaging accross a manufacturers product range to meet the EPA emissions.


from Mercury Marine website:
http://www.mercurymarine.com/serviceand ... s/carb.php

" The EPA Marine Engine Rule does not prevent manufacturers from certifying and selling conventional two-stroke engines. It is important to note the EPA currently regulates emissions levels, not engine technology. There are a number of requirements that need to be met to sell these engines, including the maintenance of a positive credit balance, production line testing and in-use testing. Mercury is pleased to be able to continue offering select conventional two-stroke models as an additional power choice for consumers seeking a more economical propulsion package. "


from CEPA website:
(Canada Environmental Protection Act)

http://www.ec.gc.ca/CEPARegistry/docume ... si/toc.cfm

.2 Marine engines and recreational vehicles in Canada

The majority of marine engines and recreational vehicles sold in Canada are imported. There is one major Canadian manufacturer8 active in this area. Statistics Canada data show that nine importers accounted for nearly 98% of the value of outboard engines, personal watercrafts, snowmobiles, and all-terrain vehicles imported in 20039. Six of these companies imported both land-based and water-based recreational products.

Preliminary discussions with industry revealed that manufacturers consider North-America as a single market for recreational vehicles and marine engines with essentially identical products being sold on both sides of the borders. The only known case of a recreational vehicle offered for sale in Canada without it being offered for sale in the U.S. is a low-power utility snowmobile.

There exist differences in sales mix between Canada and the U.S. For example, even though the same outboard engines are offered for sale in both countries, proportionally more low-power engines are sold in Canada than in the U.S. About two-thirds of the outboard engines sold in Canada are rated below 40 kW while in the U.S. slightly less than one-third of outboards sold are in this power range.

The EPA certification database for outboard and personal watercraft engines reveals that 80 of the 161 engine families of the 2003 model year were certified above the applicable standard. About three quarters of the manufacturers are certifying at least one engine family above the standard and, therefore must rely on emission averaging to meet the requirements of the U.S. rule.


1.3 Planned regulatory program

After considering that many manufacturers are producing both marine spark-ignition engines and recreational vehicles, Environment Canada has decided to combine engine emission standards for these two applications in a single regulatory package. The planned regulations will be modeled on existing regulations under Division 5 of CEPA 1999 and will incorporate by reference the applicable U.S. EPA regulatory standards.
Environment Canada also decided to include emission averaging provisions in the planned regulations.

[mikemicropterus]

The legislation is not there for Canada, we have and still do follow in the shadow of the US when it comes to outboard regulations concerning emissions.

What JP is stating is marketing dogma from the manufacturers or the sales reps. I'm sure you would get a better answer from mercury themselves as they have to meet the regulations which are mostly and have in there past been steered by CARB not the EPA. Califonia is the leader in enviromental issue in the states so if it doesn't meet CARB standards it's dirty.

It comes down to credits and if I sell a bunch of 4 strokes and DI's, plus credits then I can sell the dirty EFI's and carburetor motors minus credits. The scale was designed so that by 2008 an outboard motor had to meet the car standards of 1988 I believe as that was just at the advent of catalytic convertors in cars and that's when the emissions from cars really started to get cleaner. Outboards and I/O's don't have convertors so expecting them to meet lower levels of emissions would take a considerable amount of technolgy. One they didn't have at the time, this all started to take place around 1988.