photographing OOS fish

[Tony]

If taking a fish out of water is just too much stress for them to handle.........then they should try a 60 hour work week, pay a big mortgage, provide for three kids and a wife!

Anybody overly concerned about my stress???

That's so true, reminds me of a joke I heard once.

"I moved into a small apartment in downtown Toronto and didn't know anyone so I was thinking of buying a dog to keep me company. When I went to the pet store the employee asked me what kind of living conditions I had. So I said that I had a small apartment downtown and she said that it wasn't sufficient for the dog to be comfortable. Apparently the dog had higher standards than I do..."

My opinion, being out of the water is bad for any fish, and I wouldn't be surprised if it somewhat affected the females fertility rates... I think something that should also be considered is the stage in which the fish are in. Keeping with the example of bass, the bass around here have a long closed season in which only a portion of it is even for spawning purposes. Therefore, taking a picture of a bass in April to mid to late May probably puts the same stress on a fish as taking a picture the a fish in July. If the fish is on it's bed it should be put back ASAP. There have been a lot of good points in this thread, very interesting stuff.

[GreenBastard]

I agree about the bass being tougher than a trout and with standing more punishment and abuse. The use trout and daphnia to test water quality, so I think shows the sensitivity of a trout. Another difference with trout and bass is a bass will gaurds it's nest with ferocity as a trout usually spawns and off it goes, looking to recoop. Bass are a warm water fish, and can stand a lot more toxicity than a cool water trout. Both fish will jump out of the water with great acrobatics, to catch a fly. Bass and trout will not typically bite at something when it's spawning(unless roe from another fish or something that maddens them)

I've seen trout jump over good size dams to get where they are going only to slap back on the cement.

I think they go through alot, but I don't think an OOS picture would hurt them if done efficiently. I'm sure they're thinking alright i will pose if you throw me back in quickly, thanks


Long night and skunked at dover

[Mikey]

Mikey wrote;

I have a big problem with people who run around telling anglers they have broken their code of fishing ethics...when they themselves have many skeltons in their own closet...JP...you have NEVER taken a picture of an OOS fish you accidently hooked?? Either you are the exception ....or not caught many fish....

Mikey and everyone, Sorry If I come off strong and you are right Mikey that I am guilty of once taking pics of out of season fish, but I have not in a many years and will never again. What changed my ways, don't know, but all I can say is that I don't agree with the practice. I am sorry to all I have offended by calling it poaching, not the right term to use. I just see so many people abusing the environment by pulling fish off beds and not caring. This is why I will never fish a tournament anywhere where it targets spawning fish in early season.
Just my 2 cents I guess.
Cheers
JP

JP, apology accepted. I grew up in Atlantic Canada where people make a living out of poaching a fish that is very close to my heart, the Atlantic salmon. I have watched depleting stocks and poor returns for years, and also witnessed people ripping snag hooks through pools at nite ....setting up nets during the nite and emptying pools of the few salmon that remain of what is basically an endangered species. Poachers are given a slap on the wrist and sent home by the legal system....only to return and continue their practice. Accusing someone of being a poacher is a serious statement in my books where I come from...and I'm sure to many people on this board.I have not personally kept an Atlantic salmon to eat in 25 years of fishing them....and beleive me...between myself and my brother....we have caught many...every year we have a running joke...we take our salmon tags...connect them all together and put them on the Xmas tree as a decoration...to celebrate the fish we left to swim again...and return to the rivers to spawn....if I'm going to be accused of poaching for taking a picture of a bass that was caught and released out of season....I'd better be standing in front of one of 2 people....the game warden or my maker. I , like you, will not target bedding fish, irrespective of the species, and have had this debate with many of my friends south of the border where it a frequent AND legal practice, it's their perogative to do it and it's legal...I won't accuse them of ruining the stocks because I have no factual proof it does so...nor will I refuse to talk to them because they practice it. I will simply not participate...I was speaking with a few members on here via MSN tonite and discussing the "Holier than thou" attitudes of some members of this board....a guy holding a fish is literally blown out of the water because he's posting a picture of himself holding a fish....by someone miles away sitting in the comfort of their home behind a keyboard playing judge and jury....I'd love to know how many mistakes this person has made while growing up and learning to fish...did he hold a fish wrong? GUILTY! Did he hook an OOS fish? GUILTY...Did he foul hook a fish?? GUILTY...Did he keep a fish for consumption...leaving it in the bottom of his boat or on a stringer to die a slow death??? INHUMANE!...My point here is that I joined this board to have some fun ...meet some new people with the same interests, possibly wet a line with a few and share information and stories about my passion...not to be judged by a group of my peers.....if that is the purpose of this board, (which I highly doubt) I will walk away and leave you to conduct your business...as I want no part of it. Otherwise, lets stop the finger pointing and gavel banging . We have ALL, without exception, been guilty at one point of our fishing lives...Sorry for the rant...and to be quite honest...I really am not concerned if this ruffles anyones feathers...but I will apologize for taking up valuable bandwidth

Sincerely,
Mikey

[JP]

Thanks Mikey.
Cheers
JP

[Michael]

Very interesting thread - thanks to all who have participated so far.


I dug a little deeper into the literature and found a very current 2005 review on the subject (stress physiology of C & R). Cooke and Suski (two more Canadians!) considered all published research on the subject

They found striking consistencies across species in the response to C&R-related stressors. Despite the cynical allusions by a couple of Fish-Hawkers, there were no "contradictory studies" & no fudging with statistics.

The most extensively researched species was largemouth bass (32 studies).

 
Biodiversity and Conservation
Vol: 14, Issue: 5, May 2005
pp. 1195 - 1209
 
Title: Do we need species-specific guidelines for catch-and-release recreational angling to effectively conserve diverse fishery resources?

Authors: Cooke, Steven J.a; Suski, Cory D.a, b
Affiliations: a. University of British Columbia, Department of Forest Sciences, Centre for Applied Conservation Research, 2424 Main Mall V6T 1Z4 Vancouver BC Canada

Abstract (English):
Catch-and-release recreational angling has become very popular as a conservation strategy and as a fisheries management tool for a diverse array of fishes. Implicit in catch-and-release angling strategies is the assumption that fish experience low mortality and minimal sub-lethal effects. Despite the importance of this premise, research on this topic has focused on several popular North American sportfish, with negligible efforts directed towards understanding catch-and-release angling effects on alternative fish species. Here, we summarise the existing literature to develop five general trends that could be adopted for species for which no data are currently available: (1) minimise angling duration, (2) minimise air exposure, (3) avoid angling during extremes in water temperature, (4) use barbless hooks and artificial lures/flies, and (5) refrain from angling fish during the reproductive period. These generalities provide some level of protection to all species, but do have limitations. Therefore, we argue that a goal of conservation science and fisheries management should be the creation of species-specific guidelines for catch-and-release. These guidelines would take into account the inter-specific diversity of fishes and variation in fishing techniques. As recreational angling continues to grow in popularity, expanding to many developing countries, and targeting alternative species, it is important that reasonable data appropriate for specific fish and fisheries are available. The sustainable use and conservation of recreational fishery resources will depend upon the development and dissemination of effective catch-and-release angling strategies based upon sound science to stakeholders around the world.

*******************
If anyone is interested in seeing the entire study, please send me a PM with your email address.

Cheers.

[Sawlog]

Sorry for the interruption I have been lurking for a while and often contribute to a board with the majority of members from my area of GB. Very professional and mature members here and the respect is out there regarding a great site and fishermen/women you have here.
To the Point - I couldn't help but read the following discussion and the way you guys debated it. Excellent points Mikey and I'm in the same boat as well.
While I know a lot of us appreciate scientific and statistical analysis, a link should be shown for those who are interested in it as a resource, for personal interpretation.

I have gained some insightful information and enjoyed your posts while being just as guilty as many others for never posting. I qeuss sometimes the right topic or thread catalysts the reaction Thank you for posting your opinions, which are respected and your advice offered on many topics. And, thank you Michael on the recent statistical research you provided for us.

[Bobber]

I am incredibly impressed and excited about how such a controvertial topic can be handled on this board in such a mature and informative manner.

My hats off to all of you, and thank you so much!

There are many positions out there. Here is mine.

Targeting OOS fish - bad, illegal, should not even be attempted.

Catching OOS fish - Not good, handle with care and release as quickly as possible. No one can help catching an OOS fish when fishing for an In Season fish, but it happens.

What I do when I do catch OOS fish - Release with care, change Bait, and/or change location.

Snapping a quick pic - I use to do it. I don't do it now. I realized that what's the point? I'm a recreational angler for the most part and fish for the sport of it all. Where is the sport in taking a picture of a fish that you were not targeting and caught by accident. I don't expect a "good for you" now. I used to.

Do I hold anything against those who do take pics - I personally don't condone or think they should do it, but I don't hold anything against them. I think threads like this may convince some not to do it, but others will still feel it is OK. That's the way it goes. Poaching is a very strong word and only would apply if someone actually intended to catch OOS fish, not taking a quick picture of one caught by accident.

Just my 2 cents.

Again, thank you for this thread and the way in which has been handled so far.

[Michael]

Hello Sawlog,

We've never met (on-line or elsewhere) so your "profile" of me is a way off base. I have fished with a number of Fish-Hawkers before and and I'm sure they can vouch that I am indeed, Michael I posted here as a fellow angler (not a very successful one). I don't claim to be an expert on anything.

You remarked:

"While I know a lot of us appreciate scientific and statistical analysis, a link should be shown for those who are interested in it as a resource, for personal interpretation."

I have provided some links. Alas, because most of the full-text fisheries articles are available by paid subscription only, there are no public domain links to the sources. Too bad.

People have been sending me PM's and I have been providing them with these and other related articles. Feel free to do the same.

Thanks too to all who've sent me PM's of thanks.

Good fishing to alll.

Michael

[Guest]

Michael is who he says he is. If you ever want to have a really good conversation about fishing, take him out for a day on the water. You won't be disappointed. He's a wealth of knowledge, and a stand-up guy.

Just make sure to check all of his lures to make sure they have hooks on them first, and bring lots of food.

HW

[BBRich]

After reading this, I will certainly think twice before snapping a quick pic of an OOS bass next time I get one. But then again, if it's a big bass - like over 4lbs, it's not common for me to get one (unless it's on the great lakes). Even though I'm not targetting it, I will take a pic just to help preserve the memory.

[RJ]

This topic always come up from time to time....

I'm not going to provide my opinion.....but I'll just ask this question.....I don't expect alot of responses.....but I'll put it out there....

A pre-spawn fish....(notice pre-spawn)......is hooked...landed...a quick photo is snapped.....and fish is released back to water....back on its way....

OR

A Post Spawn Fish is caught at 715 AM.....stringer with small rope is poked thru lower lip for identification.....placed in livewell....confined to area of 3 feet by 2 feet for 8 hours....joined by other bass.....bounced and sloshed around for 8 hours in warm water....taken out by small rope.....put in plastic bag with 4 others...floated in a tub of water....brought onto stage....dropped into laundry tub dry....flopping around....waiting for scale to settle.....then held up for the crowd to see and photos.....then walked back down to a boat for them to be put back at some point....

Now which of the above situations causes more stress to the bass fishery?

Now before everyone goes off here....I'm not anti-tournaments....I do them myself from time to time...and enjoy them!

My point is before people start pointing fingers....they may want to start considering their own actions on a weekly basis throughout the summer months....

RJ

[Michael]

RJ,

I agree that the finger pointing is no good. As for the pre-spawn fish photo scenario, I changed my view after reading the results of the experiment which I cited to get this thread rolling

"Our results provide evidence that stress before spawning has the potential to negatively affect largemouth bass reproductive success." Kenneth G. Ostrand (2004).

I feel lucky to have the opportunity to participate in wild, self-sustaining fisheries. Anyone who's lived in Europe or who has hosted a guest angler from Europe may have an enhanced sense of our (Canadian) good fortune. As my appreciation of this has grown, so has my respect for critical habitats and needs of wild, spawning fishes. In this light, it's no great sacrifice for me to skip the photo session of the OOS fish. No finger pointing, no holier-than-thou, no preaching....just my experience. You do as you as please.

MIchael a.k.a. Michael

[RJ]

"Our results provide evidence that stress before spawning has the potential to negatively affect largemouth bass reproductive success." Kenneth G. Ostrand (2004).

Michael,

Wouldn't a few floaters per tournament affect the bass reproduction in that system?.....I'd take the "potential to negatively affect" than the floatin key spawners....

Again.....I'm just putting forth the reality of what I've seen go on....that's all...

And before someone jumps in with.....we have a survial rate of 98% of fish weighed in.....how do you know what happens when the trap door opens on the release boat?....you don't...I don't.....but saying there are no sinkers or floaters would be pretty nieve....

Are you a tournament angler Michael?....just curious..

RJ

[Michael]

R.J.

No I'm not a tournament angler and I have very little knowledge of their impacts. I will be attending a few events this year where the new Shimano "air-free" weigh-in processs is being employed. I'm looking forward to seeing that.

I'm not suggesting that my treatment (+/- photo) of an OOS fish will impact the population in my lake. When I release a fish, I tend to think of the outcome for that particular individual, rather than health of that population of the species.

Your polarized scenario contrasting the impacts of tournament procedures vs. pre-season photos has very little relevance to my own experience...or the original context of the thread, as I see it. Why would the actions of tournament bass anglers affect how I choose to handle an OOS fish? To me, they're seperate issues. The fact that habitat loss is the greater long-term threat to our fisheries doesn't diminish my interest in doing my best to make my releases count today.

Maybe others on the board can chime in more informatively.

Just out of curiousity, what would you say to me if I'd replied that I am a tournament angler?

M

[Sawlog]

Sorry Michael for the identity mix-up Your information is indeed appreciated. Thanks for clearing things up HW, geuss I shouldn't of been so jumpy. Keep up the good work and up to date studies, as I too am still learning .