photographing OOS fish

[Mikey]

RJ,

I agree that the finger pointing is no good. As for the pre-spawn fish photo scenario, I changed my view after reading the results of the experiment which I cited to get this thread rolling

Mike....emphasis on the word "MY" and that's fine....I can respect that

Despite the cynical allusions by a couple of Fish-Hawkers, there were no "contradictory studies" & no fudging with statistics.

Cynical allusions? I have read your reports and commented respectfully....accusing people of having cynical allusions because they disagree or question the validity of your report is an asinine attitude and reflects your inability to be open minded to others opinions...it's a shame that someone who seems to have such great conviction to the results of the studies you quote, lacks the open mindedness to debate the issue without having to draw on sarcasm.....seems obvious to me who's the cynical one here. It's unfortunate but typical that you have an indepth knowledge of resources for fishing reports and data....and a lack of practical fishing knowledge....you would then be able to validate your report results with practical experience, which is what the members offer here as an argument to the results of the various reports you have quoted. RJ's statement was perfectly logical and in the practical sense....your data does NOT answer those questions....
I am a manager in aeronautical design engineering, and live in a statistical driven environment. Exprimental design is my forte. One thing I have learned over the years Michael is that experimental statistics and real life validation for repeatability often produce different results. Therefore I would recommend you take the comments by the "experienced" anglers
on this board and use it to validate your data...otherwise....it will be challenged. If you cannot answer the challenge ( which personally speaking, I feel you've done a weak job at best) then do not post the reports, and do what YOU believe is the right thing to do. And demonstrate that you can discuss the subject while at the same time, not having to resort to sarcasm as a crutch.

I feel lucky to have the opportunity to participate in wild, self-sustaining fisheries. Anyone who's lived in Europe or who has hosted a guest angler from Europe may have an enhanced sense of our (Canadian) good fortune. As my appreciation of this has grown, so has my respect for critical habitats and needs of wild, spawning fishes. In this light, it's no great sacrifice for me to skip the photo session of the OOS fish. No finger pointing, no holier-than-thou, no preaching....just my experience. You do as you as please.

MIchael a.k.a. Michael

There isn't a spreadsheet that's worth anything without practical experience and application....enjoy the wildlife Mike...and do what you believe is best...based on whatever report or gut feeling you may have....that's all we can hope for anyone to do as a conciensous angler today....

Respectfully,
Mikey {insert smile here}

[SkeeterJohn]

The reality of these types of reports is that we'll never see a rule to ban taking fish out of the water at certain times of the year because that in itself is impossible to enforce. One more realistic outcome is to further reduce the open season for some species.

When everything is put into perspective there are far more serious issues at hand than reports on taking fish out of water and photographing them.... gezzzz when it's put like that it just screams of peta eh

[Mikey]

gezzzz when it's put like that it just screams of peta eh

Can you spell obsessive John???

[RJ]

Just out of curiousity, what would you say to me if I'd replied that I am a tournament angler?

It would give us all a base of information from where you are coming from when it comes to bass fisheries...that's all....

RJ

[Cancatchbass]

I think the "cynical allusions" referred to by Michael may be contained in some of the PM's he (and I) have received.

There seems to be a fairly common belief that independent fishery biologists have ulterior motives that drive their research- that the statistics that are provided by their studies are perhaps "doctored" or skewed in such a way to satisfy some goals of either these same biologists or some unnamed outside interests.

I work with people that have made the study of various creatures their life work, and believe me, they have little imagination, do not rely on guesswork, and do not draw conclusions until they have proven to themselves time and time again that their studies are valid and repeatable.

If someone chooses to ignore the studies Micheal has referenced, by all means that is their choice to make. I think that is a shame, though. Basing the handling of OOS fish on gut feelings and past habits and at the same time ignoring scientific evidence produced by some of the most respected fisheries biologists just seems wrong to me- plain and simple.

This thread, (presumably) was initiated as a result of a recent thread containing a photo of an OOS fish- obviously a large pre-spawn female. No one jumped on the original poster for taking the photo, even after it was determined that the fish was caught, taken to shore, a camera handed to a bystander on shore, the fish posed, then eventually released. How long did that take? A couple of seconds? Sure.

I suspect Fish-Hawk has become THE place on the net to post photos of OOS fish, and this is likely the result of the support for those photos from many Hawk-Talkers. We know the poster with the photo catches big bass-we've seen excellent photos of quality largemouth caught in season while he was targeting them. I don't think we needed to see that last photo...

CCB

[RJ]

Hey CCB,

I 100% agree with you....the second I saw that pic it didn't sit well with me either.....

Clearly that is not what we (guys who don't mind a quick OOS pic)...are advocating in any way....

RJ

[Moosebunk]

Sorry guys, no input thus far on the topic, but at the edge of my seat catching up on the days event.

CCB, well put. It's been a tough spring to be witness to some things. I can't even get started on the 6 to 11 pound walleye full of eggs I've heard come back to the docks, the reports of 60 to 80+ spawning walleye caught and kept, and the leviathan pike dripping eggs snared at choking river rapids. Not one pic seen yet of this, glad some fish are just getting the snapshots and put back to swim again. Still though, it all adds up, and it's all hard to absorb.

When you see it, when you hear it, whatever it is that doesn't sit well. It becomes difficult not to think that you will try to do better yourself. And I thought golf was a game of etiquette, rules and gentlemanship... sheesh.

[Michael]

Just to add to what CCB said...with only a few exceptions, the many fisheries scientists and managers I've met came to their chosen professions from a passionate love of fish and fishing. They continue to fish through their careers acquiring on-the-water know-how that might not be the sole domain of the Hawk-Talkers, as Mikey seemed to suggest.

The authors of the studies I cited are avid anglers who've been at it for decades. The studies were designed and funded in association with competitive bass anglers.

Again the investigators are experienced anglers AND professional scientists. Frankly, who better to do this kind of research?

Now, I've been fishing for 35+ years and I live, year-round, on a fine smallie/muskie lake. Even so, with all of my acquired on-the-water know-how, I have the humility not to presume to know whether or not air-exposure of prespawn female bass affects the size or timing of swim-up by their offspring. I'm more comfortable defering to the results of controlled, replicated physiological experiments conducted by angler-scientists and published in peer-reviewed journals. But that's just me.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to do or believe anything different.

[BigSim]

Okay, third time's the charm, I didn't know how else to start this post, and it's my third attempt. I dont want to get into any arguement, and I'll be frank, I didn't read every single piece of information that Michael posted, because statistics wll rarely change my outlook on anything. But that's just me.

Snapping a pic of every OOS fish you catch seems rather frivolous. To me. maybe not to you... and maybe it seems worse to you too.

However, if I bring in a 5 lb Largemouth I happened to hook while fishing for walleye next week, I will take a picture of it. While I understand I probably won't get a pat on the back for an OOS fish, I probably wouldn't post it either, but I would keep it, because It's something I'd want to remember, and hell, with my luck i'd never see one ever again anyways.

But I can't see much more harm in snapping a picture of a fish, and I do mean any fish, then holding a fish out of the water for an extra 10 seconds when you can't get the hook out of his mouth because it, say swallowed the majority of it. Lets face it on this one, catching a fish and releasing it back into it's natural habitat will probably be detrimental to it weather its spawning or not.

To target OOS fish should not, can not, and never will be condoned by me, or by anyone else here I am sure.

Now. Will anybody really even read this now that I'm on page 5? or maybe 6?

[RJ]

The studies were designed and funded in association with competitive bass anglers.

Aha.....making sense to me now....

Did they ask to have studies done on the damage to a systems bass fishery that has been used as a tournament site where potentially 400 plus fish are weighed in?

Did they ask to have a study done about long term effects of multiple tournaments every year...year after year on the same bodies of water?

Doubtful......no no...it's the other guys that are affecting bass populations....not us...

RJ

[Mikey]

The studies were designed and funded in association with competitive bass anglers.

Did they ask to have a study done about long term effects of multiple tournaments every year...year after year on the same bodies of water?

Doubtful......no no...it's the other guys that are affecting bass populations....not us...

RJ

RJ....are you insinuating that tournaments are the root of all evil?? .....and deserve greater focus when conducting this type of study???? That there was bias involved in this????? Are you saying that certain facts were hidden or not published because of it's potential negative impact on the public image of tournament fishing????....Please tell all!!! Enquiring minds need to know!

[SkeeterJohn]

I suspect Fish-Hawk has become THE place on the net to post photos of OOS fish, and this is likely the result of the support for those photos from many Hawk-Talkers.

There is however no regulation explicitly stating you can not take a picture. However, i also agree 100% that the recent picture was obviously not taken quickly with a camera at hand but from a dock as stated.

Bigsim, personally i only take pictures of fish that i would normally pohotograph and not every one i catch. I'd say the majority of fish go back without a picture.. hmmm i need to catch more bigger fish

Mikey, I think RJ is making the same point that there are other issues that effect our fisheries which should cause higher concern than removing fish from the water at specific times of the year. RJ isn't against bass tounaments but i'm sure he agrees that better release methods need to be introduced accross the board. When you consider what a bass goes through during a tournament it seems ridiculous to be worried about taking a fish out of the water for 15 seconds.

CCB i agree these studies do have some value and i don't think too many sqew the results in any way. I think we all agree that there are more pressing issues that have a much greater impact on our fisheries.

[Cancatchbass]

"I think we all agree that there are more pressing issues that have a much greater impact on our fisheries."

Agreed, John. But this is one issue that we as anglers can control ourselves, as individuals.

The same can't be said for such threats as habitat loss, corporate dumping of pollutants, etc. Unfortunately.

CCB

[wolfe]

Agreed. I suspect Fish-Hawk has become THE place on the net to post photos of OOS fish, and this is likely the result of the support for those photos from many Hawk-Talkers. CCB

I don't think anyone can argue that there has been a flurry of OOS fish pics posted here ever since the last huge debate this past winter, when we happened to get some feedback from one CO that some of you guys perchanced to encounter and engage in a conversation on this topic. Apparently, he was a friendly guy and answered a lot of questions. He was, based on what was reported, rather benign on the subject of taking pics of OOS fish.

This was ONE individual (the CO) and once his views were relayed to us, it seemed to give a green light or a thumbs up to OOS fish pics, and I don't think anyone can say that we haven't seen quite the increase of them on this board. I would love to have a room full of CO's to see how the majority feels about OS fish pics. I don't think you'd find too many condoning them.

...and having a conservative edge to your ethics does not make you PETA. That's gettin' old.

Well, this is once again turning into a "lockhorns" topic, but after 5 or 6 pages of this, I wanted to say that I do think people are getting a bit too comfortable with OOS fish pics.

Just my opinion, and it is given so respectfully.

Lastly, I appreciate the original poster who was just sharing research info. We shouldn't selectively choose to ignore statistics just because they are bothersome to our habits or wants.

W.

[Markus]

Wolfe, lets not forget that Micheals post may have influenced some to take better care when handling oos prespawning fish. That's all one can ask. We can't expect to change everyones practice with one page of statistics we read on the internet.

I for one though, will be greatly reducing my oos pics. I asked Micheal to forward me his reaserch and I've enjoyed reading it. Do I buy into all of it? Not really, but I am sold on that perhaps I am putting a little extra stress on a fish at a time I probably shouldn't be.

I don't mind being educated, but it is a slow process when trying to teach a new language to someone who doesn't really want to listen.