Ethics & Legalities

[mosquito]

This "system" looks no different than a simple trailing hook (even if it's a circle hook). It is perfectly legal, don't see any problem.

[Hookup]

The system seems perfectly legal by all definitions (NY and ONT), when used as intended... I certainly could not find a way to fault the intent, which is to hook a fish in the mouth... I do not see how the point of penetration being inside or outside is a factor, the jaw is a part of the mouth, you're hooking the mouth... and I'm not even a lawyer, but I act like one on web-based forums!

Like all methods it could be abused... doesn't make it illegal just because the potential for abuse is there.. does it?

[Todd B.]

Hookup,

I think the key point of the system that the MNR and DEC will be looking at is the fact that the fish does not "take" the hook. Rather the line is pulled across the mouth of the fish until it subsequently engages on the outside of the mouth.

[Hookup]

Unfortunately I agree with you, and as such I expect them to call it "illegal". I realize from an enforcement point of view it is hard to judge intent from practice which is why the law's typically err on the side of caution, and in this case they might... which is unfortunate to bad a good idea/concept that helps CnR practices just because it would be hard to police/monitor those abusing and those following the practice....

ah well, such is life i guess... and at the end of the day, fishing is only a few months away!

[Todd B.]

Well if it does come back as being declared illegal, I am thinking of passing on the info to the Cooke lab here in town, given that they are doing substantial research into C&R. In particular, I would be interested in knowing what the amount of damage can be expected when hooking a fish from the outside of the jaw compared to when it is hooked on the inside.

[Doug]

But the fish does TAKE the fly, which is the artificial lure. If I jig a lure with a stinger hook, and catch the walleye on the stinger, it did not bite on the lure itself, I caught it on the stinger.

And to the best of my knowledge, stinger hooks are perfectly legal in Ontario, as long as the fish is caught in the mouth.

Seems to be this system is exactly analagous..........fish strikes AT the artificial lure, but is HOOKED by an attached hook, in/on the mouth.

Doug

[mitch]

This system is no different than fishing steelhead with beads where the hook trails the pegged bead by about two inches. Lots of discussions regarding whether the practice is ethical, however, from an enforcement point of view it is legal.

[Todd B.]

Mitch,

My understanding of the pegged bead rig was that they still dressed the hook (sparsely) as a fly, rather than a having a bare hook.

Doug,

I don't think you can compare a stinger hook to how the Moffitt system is rigged. With the Moffitt system your terminal hook is at least 5-6" from the fly. Stingers on the other hand do not typically extend past the tail of the lure (or live bait), and were designed to catch fish that had a tendancy to nip a the tails of the lures/baits.

[Prairieboy]

If you dressed up the circle hook in the Moffitt System and called it a fly is there anything illegal about attaching the attractors (dummy flies) up the line or in this case 6-8" from the hook? In that case if I were to place the smallest bait or dressing on the circle hook it would be legal everywhere including NY state. Is it the intent of the setup...no but is it legal based on the interpretation of the regulation...yes.

Just as someone said before it is one thing to use a particular fishing system but it is something else to abuse it. If it were illegal I can think of several ways someone could modify it to make it legal which brings us back to ethics. Rules imposed on one scenario do not always apply accross the board. In this case I hope that a blanket ruling on flossing is not be confused with this and other techniques.

The regulatory bodies, I am sure , consider the positive and negatives prior to passing judgement and I can only hope that the answer to this is clearly put in the best interest of the fish/resources and does not become a coin toss on personal ethics, simply because everyone weights things differently.

Cheers,
Prairieboy

[Todd B.]

Doug,

Because the fly in the Moffitt system is not tied on a hook, it is not considered to be a lure. In Alberta, a fish must voluntarily take the hook. This is not case with in the Moffitt system, where the fish takes the "attractor" and the angler subsequently pulls the hook into the outside of the fish's mouth.

It is this definition of lure/fly that allows anglers to fish a hookless attractor above their actual fly in waters restricted to single flies only.

[Todd B.]

After senior review, the MNR has ruled that the Moffit System is legal in Ontario. The actual email response is given below.

From: Humber, Derrick (MNR)
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:36 AM
To: @MNR-Enf-cos; @MNR-Enf-es
Subject: Legal Interpretation of Moffit Rig.

Hi

Just thought that I would get out a quick e-mail to advise on the interpretation of the Moffit Rig. For those not familiar with this fishing system you can view the video at the following link.

http://www.moffittangling.com

If you watch the video you will see that the intention is to reduce mortality associated with catch and release fishing, in particular for fly fishing. The concern expressed by some is that the fish are actually hooked in the exterior of the mouth and not inside the mouth as we normally see. In this case to work the fish has to take the bait and hold it while the angler sets the hook. By design the hook will only catch the fish in the soft fleshy exterior part of the mouth, it will not hook the fish anywhere else, not that I've seen of the video. If the fish does not take the fly the system does not work.

After discussing with Mr. Robbins and Fisheries Section staff we have agreed that this system is legal for use in Ontatio. Any questions please feel free to contact me.

Derrick Humber
a/Enforcement Specialist
Peterborough
705-755-5186

ENFORCEMENT BRANCH MISSION: To safeguard the public interest by leading and delivering professional regulatory protection of Ontario’s natural resources.

[slop]

Thank you.

[Todd B.]

Here is the response from the NY DEC.

Sorry for the tardiness of this answer, but it just came to my attention today.

The short answer is that it is legal in most waters in NY (except for the flyfishing only section of the Salmon River where an artificial fly has to be used AND the fly must be on the hook).

Now for the reason why (read only if you like legalese!):

ECL 11-0701 4. states "A fishing license entitles the holder to take fish by angling, spearing, hooking, longbow and tipups....

ECL 11-0103 12. b. defines angling as " taking fish by hook and line. It includes bait and fly fishing, casting, trolling, and also includes the use of landing nets in completing the catch of fish taken by hook and line...Angling does not include snatching or hooking or the use of tip-ups.

ECL 11-0103 12. c. "Hooking", "snatching" or "snagging" means taking fish that have not taken or attempted to take a bait or artificial lure into their mouth, by impaling fish with one or more hooks or similar devices, whether or not baited, into any part of their body.

The Moffit System uses a fly above the bare circle hook. Because the fish "takes" or "attempted to take" the fly before the hook is set, it does not constitute hooking or snagging as defined in the ECL and therefore constitutes "angling" as defined in the ECL. Angling is allowed for holders of a fishing license or to people under the age of 16 who do not need a fishing license.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Gregory Edward Kozlowski
Fisheries Outreach Coordinator
NYSDEC
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233
(518)402-8896

[Doug]

Glad to see they share the interpretation that I thought was reasonable......

Doug

[steve-hamilton]

Legal: Yes

Ethical: Far from it.