Fishing Tournaments

[Markus]

if there were NOT bass tournaments
then we would surely EAT all the bass....
and fishing would be very much worse than it isn't now...

No problem Dana...I must have mis understood your words. Thanks for explaining them to me a bit more.

[Cancatchbass]

Sure- start this discussion when I'm in the mountains, 2500 miles away!

There are so many misconceptions about tournament fishing that have surfaced in this thread that it boggles my mind.

First- Please keep in mind that a well-run tournament has little long-term effect on the fisheries. Sure, it may be a little harder to catch fish in the days immediately following a major tournament, but within a few days things are back to normal.

Next- A tournament is a tournament. A derby is a derby. And n'ere the twain shall meet. (Like that one wallybuoy?) Tournament anglers, at least all I know (and that is MANY) treat their fish better than many people treat their pets. Getting the fish back in the water with the least possible amount of stress is their major goal. Many derbies, though, are semi-organized meat-hunts. Enough said on this topic.

Next- most tournament series in Eastern Ontario actually have so few participants that they cause little disruption at ramps or on the water. Let's face it- a lot of the series struggle to get a dozen or so boats. But an angler out on Mississippi or White Lake who sees 50 boats apparently fishing for bass invariably says- "There were tournament boats plastered all over the lake! I couldn't find a place to fish!", not realizing most of the boats are just "Fun-fishing" just as he/she is.

Next- Is there a belief that someone is getting rich by either organizing or competing in tournaments? Cash cow??? HA! Double HA! With the exception of an out-of-area organization that has begun making forays into eastern Ontario waters, I don't know of a single tournament organization (based in eastern Ontario) that is run as a business. It was tried and failed miserably. Now, hard working volunteers spend many hours, year-round , making these events possible. It is more hard work than most, including myself, would be willing to take on.

Next- Was there a comment that part of the tournament entry fees should go towards restocking? Tournament anglers do their own restocking- immediately after the weigh-ins! The best restocking program ever developed.

ganman- I like your idea about posting flyers at ramps where tournaments are planned. A schedule of events for the coming summer would be great. We have to constantly remind ourselves that not all anglers want to or should have to search on the web to plan their weekend trips. Also- you have a pm re: the *****.

plowjock- you are right on when you give credit to Shimano and recognize their efforts to educate and preserve our resources. This is one reason (aside from their quality) that I use their equipment pretty well exclusively. The other manufacturers should be ashamed of themselves.

Dana's point that if there were no bass tournaments that many more bass would end up in frying pans is right on. I stopped eating bass when I started fishing tournaments 20-some years ago.

CCB- loves to poke sleeping dogs...

[Guest]

CCB,

Next- A tournament is a tournament. A derby is a derby. And n'ere the twain shall meet. (Like that one wallybuoy?) Tournament anglers, at least all I know (and that is MANY) treat their fish better than many people treat their pets. Getting the fish back in the water with the least possible amount of stress is their major goal. Many derbies, though, are semi-organized meat-hunts. Enough said on this topic.

Putting your fish in a livewell for hours on end, weighing them (keeping them out of water), and then releasing them is handling your fish better than your pet? Wouldn't want to be a tournament angler's dog. Last time I tried to put my dog in water, he almost took my head off. If only fish could talk.

Next- most tournament series in Eastern Ontario actually have so few participants that they cause little disruption at ramps or on the water. Let's face it- a lot of the series struggle to get a dozen or so boats. But an angler out on Mississippi or White Lake who sees 50 boats apparently fishing for bass invariably says- "There were tournament boats plastered all over the lake! I couldn't find a place to fish!", not realizing most of the boats are just "Fun-fishing" just as he/she is.

Were there not a demand, tournaments wouldn't exist. The tournaments may be small now, but there is potential for them to grow, as they have in the US. You need only look at the state of some US fisheries to understand the importance of proper economic maintenance. As I've said before, once self sustaining fisheries are now only sustained with great effort. Catch and release isn't sufficient; more needs to be done. I'd hate to see Canadian waters end up that way. It's the responsbility of all anglers, not just tournaments. However, if you want to use the resource as a potential money maker, you should be prepared (and willing) to give a little something back as far as I'm concerned.

Take some of the larger tournaments in the US. If you had the chance at winning a $40,000 bass boat, would you potentially compromise the lives of a few fish?? Most would.

Next- Is there a belief that someone is getting rich by either organizing or competing in tournaments? Cash cow??? HA! Double HA! With the exception of an out-of-area organization that has begun making forays into eastern Ontario waters, I don't know of a single tournament organization (based in eastern Ontario) that is run as a business. It was tried and failed miserably. Now, hard working volunteers spend many hours, year-round , making these events possible. It is more hard work than most, including myself, would be willing to take on.

And it is that exception that bothers me. Where there is one, there are others. Just because the tournaments being run now are smaller than our US counterparts, doesn't mean there isn't the potential for growth. People have failed in the past, but others will continue to try. If we don't set a precedent now, then it will be much harder to do it later. If these tournaments are volunteer run, and the payouts are so nominal, then how are these venues any different (for the exception of C&R ethics) than a derby?? What is the point? There is no money involved??

Next- Was there a comment that part of the tournament entry fees should go towards restocking? Tournament anglers do their own restocking- immediately after the weigh-ins! The best restocking program ever developed.

So, again, putting a fish in a livewell for hours, taking it out of water for an extended period of time, and then releasing it is re-stocking? Please.

I practice C&R religiously, but I will never kid myself into believing that I don't kill fish. It has probably happened, and will probably happen again. Any time you hook a fish, there is potential it doesn't survive, even if you follow "C&R protocol". The fish may swim away, but you will never know if that fish will live to see another day. All you can do is follow best practices, and hope for the best. Accordingly, since anglers (myself included) do put these fish at risk, is it really too much to ask that they give a little something back? I don't think it is.

HW

[Guest]

Out of sheer curiosity, I did a very quick search on the Net to see if I could find some Ontario based tournaments to check what the payout was. Here are a few:

http://www.redlakefallclassic.com/ - 1st place - $10,000
http://www.canadianfishingtour.com/Triton2day.asp - $55,000 boat
http://www.canadianfishingtour.com/Merc1day.asp - $45,000 boat
http://www.canadianfishingtour.com/Prince100.asp - $26,000 boat
http://www.bassprointernational.com/payouts.asp - $65,000 boat/cash

Nope, no money or incentives in fishing tournaments. A couple 5 pound bass vs. a $65,000 payout. Without a doubt, no angler in this tournament would compromise those fish to win a boat. At the end of the day, do you think the winner of this boat cared more about the boat, or whether that fish survived? My bets are on the boat.

HW

[Cancatchbass]

"Putting your fish in a livewell for hours on end, weighing them (keeping them out of water), and then releasing them is handling your fish better than your pet? Wouldn't want to be a tournament angler's dog. Last time I tried to put my dog in water, he almost took my head off. If only fish could talk."

Let's get something out of the way right off. Have you ever fished a well-run tournament in a properly equipped bass-boat with an angler that knows how to handle fish properly? If not, and I STRONGLY suspect this is the case- you are speaking from a position of ignorance. (For the ***** people- I am not calling anyone names or attacking HW. I am merely questioning his first-hand knowledge and experience in an area where I have ample. )

"Were there not a demand, tournaments wouldn't exist. The tournaments may be small now, but there is potential for them to grow, as they have in the US. You need only look at the state of some US fisheries to understand the importance of proper economic maintenance. As I've said before, once self sustaining fisheries are now only sustained with great effort. Catch and release isn't sufficient; more needs to be done. I'd hate to see Canadian waters end up that way. It's the responsbility of all anglers, not just tournaments. However, if you want to use the resource as a potential money maker, you should be prepared (and willing) to give a little something back as far as I'm concerned."

You seem to think there is a boom time coming to the world of tournament fishing. Sorry, but there are likely no more tournament anglers in eastern Ontario than there was 10-15 years ago. They come and go. As do the tournament series themselves. I look at the list of participants in Renegade Bass, for example, and see many new names each season. But there are far more names that have disappeared from the roster over the years. In the early 90's Ottawa Bass had fields consisting of 90+ boats. There have never been fields that size here since.

The "out of region series" I mentioned had poor tournouts for their eastern Ontario tournaments, probably because most anglers in this area are relatively "locked-in to their favourite non-profit organizations. Tournament fishing in Canada will never grow to the level of even some of the individual states, since our season is so short and the angler pool just isn't there. This might be a good thing (or not) depending on your point of view.

"Take some of the larger tournaments in the US. If you had the chance at winning a $40,000 bass boat, would you potentially compromise the lives of a few fish?? Most would."

Speak for yourself. I have won a bass boat (albeit only a $20,000. boat at the time) but would not have done anything unethical or "compromised the life of a few fish" to do it.

"And it is that exception that bothers me. Where there is one, there are others. Just because the tournaments being run now are smaller than our US counterparts, doesn't mean there isn't the potential for growth. People have failed in the past, but others will continue to try. If we don't set a precedent now, then it will be much harder to do it later. If these tournaments are volunteer run, and the payouts are so nominal, then how are these venues any different (for the exception of C&R ethics) than a derby?? What is the point? There is no money involved??"

There is money involved, but compared to the expense involved, it is nominal. Each year a couple of teams will actually cover their expenses. The other 95% will be in the red. If anyone is in it for the money, it's time to change hobbies.

"I practice C&R religiously, but I will never kid myself into believing that I don't kill fish. It has probably happened, and will probably happen again. Any time you hook a fish, there is potential it doesn't survive, even if you follow "C&R protocol". The fish may swim away, but you will never know if that fish will live to see another day. All you can do is follow best practices, and hope for the best."

Good for you.

"Accordingly, since anglers (myself included) do put these fish at risk, is it really too much to ask that they give a little something back? I don't think it is."

Are we still talking tournaments here? Or are you saying all anglers should "give a little something back"? If you mean all anglers, I agree 100%.

"I am not opposed to running tournaments if they are run responsibly. Use the fisheries as a cash-cow if you want, but make sure you give back to them. Not doing so is down right selfish and negligent"

Again with the cash cow? Why not start a thread about anglers using our lakes and rivers as major food sources?

Whoops! Another post just as I was going to submit this! Uh, did you notice none of those tournaments - the Classics, that is- were held anywhere near eastern Ontario? Did you know that the payouts per regular tournament were based on "Full Fields" and that many of the tournaments had fields that were not anywhere near full- like 40-50%? This directly affected the payouts and I think CFT will have a troubled future, to be honest. GM tried to get a foothold in Eastern Ontario, but when the fields and the payouts weren't there, it was the beginning of the end for them.

Are you concerned about tournaments all over North America affecting your fishing or were we dealing with our own back yard? There have been big-money tournaments in Kenora and other areas of Ontario for years and the angling has not suffered for it.

CCB- loves a good debate...

[Guest]

Have you ever fished a well-run tournament in a properly equipped bass-boat with an angler that knows how to handle fish properly?

I don't need to fish in a "properly equipped bass-boat" to understand the risks that are placed on a fish when you hook it. Proper C&R or not, a fish CAN die regardless of how "careful" you think you are being. Muskie, bass, salmon, shark, etc, it doesn't matter. Hook a fish, you put it at risk. Doing anything other than immediately releasing the fish increases the odds of harming the fish, whether it be taking a picture, or putting it in your "well equipped bass boat". I may be naive about the inner-workings of a proper-bass boat, but I am certainly not naive about the risk I subject a fish to when I hook it. This is why I feel it is important not only to practice C&R, but also to give back to the very fishery that I am distrubing. Make a mess, clean it up, that's how I live all facets of my life.

You seem to think there is a boom time coming to the world of tournament fishing. Sorry, but there are likely no more tournament anglers in eastern Ontario than there was 10-15 years ago. They come and go. As do the tournament series themselves. I look at the list of participants in Renegade Bass, for example, and see many new names each season. But there are far more names that have disappeared from the roster over the years. In the early 90's Ottawa Bass had fields consisting of 90+ boats. There have never been fields that size here since.

A population of over 30 million and growing in Canada, and billions just south of the border. Nope, no potential for growth. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be in 5 years, but there is always the potential.

Speak for yourself. I have won a bass boat (albeit only a $20,000. boat at the time) but would not have done anything unethical or "compromised the life of a few fish" to do it.

To quote: "Good for you". You may be the norm, you may be the exception. It doesn't matter. With money comes irresponsibility. Period.

There is money involved, but compared to the expense involved, it is nominal. Each year a couple of teams will actually cover their expenses. The other 95% will be in the red. If anyone is in it for the money, it's time to change hobbies.

With a $50,000 - $60,000 payout, I have a really hard time believing that anything can be termed nominal in this capacity. All anglers might not be getting rich, but that's not the point. With that kind of incentive, you will attract anglers that would put the prize before the fishery.

"I practice C&R religiously, but I will never kid myself into believing that I don't kill fish. It has probably happened, and will probably happen again. Any time you hook a fish, there is potential it doesn't survive, even if you follow "C&R protocol". The fish may swim away, but you will never know if that fish will live to see another day. All you can do is follow best practices, and hope for the best."

Good for you.

It's really dissappointing that you don't seem to want to address this issue. Are you not concerned with harming fish? Do you not feel a responsibility to do something about it? You seem to be brushing this issue off. Do you honestly believe that C&R is sufficient?

Or are you saying all anglers should "give a little something back"? If you mean all anglers, I agree 100%.

Good that we agree on this one. All anglers should give back to the fishery. Given the "nominal" payouts of these tournaments, I have a hard time seeing why some of this money doesn't go back to the fisheries. Seems like a good place to start.

Again with the cash cow? Why not start a thread about anglers using our lakes and rivers as major food sources?

This is from an earlier post. Cash-cow is a perfect description. Anglers are making money off fishing. How else would you describe it?

The difference between anglers fishing in tournaments, and those fishing for food is that those fishing for food don't try to kid themselves into believing that they aren't harming the fisheries. At least they will admit they are doing harm.

Uh, did you notice none of those tournaments - the Classics, that is) were held anywhere near eastern Ontario?

Ontario, Manitoba, PEI, it doesn't matter. That's definitely not the point. I'm concerned with Canadian fisheries.

I love a good debate too.

HW

[Cancatchbass]

HW- I don't understand what you mean by "giving back". Please explain.

If you are indeed convinced that every time you hook a fish that you have given it a death sentence, I suggest golf might be a better alternative for you. It's the only way I know to not impact the fisheries at all. My point about being in a well-equipped bass boat is that everything possible is done to ensure the health of the fish. I have 3 separate aeration systems, and have had a grand total of ONE fish not make it to the weigh scales in fine shape in 100's of tournaments. If you want to believe a sizeable portion of the fish I caught died subsequently, that's up to you.

"A population of over 30 million and growing in Canada, and billions just south of the border. Nope, no potential for growth. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be in 5 years, but there is always the potential."

Yes there is always potential for anything. The world might end tomorrow, too, but it's not too likely. I don't live my life worrying about all the unlikely "potentials".

"With a $50,000 - $60,000 payout" There are hundreds of tournaments in Ontario each year. There is a handful of potential $50-60,000 winners. Better odds at the Casino.

"It's really dissappointing that you don't seem to want to address this issue. Are you not concerned with harming fish? Do you not feel a responsibility to do something about it? You seem to be brushing this issue off. Do you honestly believe that C&R is sufficient?"

Done properly? YEP! Do I lose sleep over whether I might "harm" a fish? NOPE!

I can't understand why you feel that tournament anglers should "give back" any more than recreational anglers. Simply because they are competing? Do you think the fish care? I would think if they were capable of such reasoning, they would be relieved to see a tournament angler on the other end of the line.

"The difference between anglers fishing in tournaments, and those fishing for food is that those fishing for food don't try to kid themselves into believing that they aren't harming the fisheries. At least they will admit they are doing harm".

Ho ho. Wait long enough and the opposition is sure to shoot themselves in the foot! How many toes are you missing? Gonna edit that comment out?

CCB- (Da, da, da, another bites the dust! )

[M.T. Livewell]

Anglers are making money off fishing. How else would you describe it?

Not this one I am afraid.

OK, I'm playing Devil on this one. A group of 20 FH'ers goes to, lets say, Quinte for a fishing trip. 19 of which catch fish (sorry Bacon, Snag outifshes you again). There is a little derby and the lucky guy who caught the biggest fish gets, lets say $200. Everyone enjoys a healthy walleye shore lunch on the freshly caught fish. How much of that should he give back of his 'tournament' winnings, and to whom? How about the 2nd and 3rd place finishers? How about Hawk and Bobber, they are the organizing commitee.

There ain't no cash cow, and least not in leagues I have shopped around for here in the Ottawa region. Certainly, there are some guys who get better results as they are more experience fishermen, so they win the prize money. I hope to be one of those guys someday. But we all put our fish back into the same body of water when we are done.

Should Jetskiers put money back into our waters? Sure. But no more than anyone else.

As for boat ramps, I am sorry to hear the woes of people who find themselves at a launch location on tourney day. It has happened to me from both sides of the coin. Go ahead and fish the waters, you'd be surprised, there are a lot more fish in there than you might think. As to why it is the same bodies of water over and over again, well, it has more to do with the launches than the water. You ever try to launch 30+ boats in just over an hour. You need a solid launch location and PARKING. And we pay for that.

I'm a little disappointed that on this board there is a feeling that tourney anglers are not paying there fair share. Believe me, check my wallet, I have put enough money into fishing ... but don't tell my wife .

M.T. Livewell

[Guest]

Giving back means anything other than simply consuming. Volunteer for a conservational organization, participate in spawning and netting surveys, participate in environmental waterway projects, educate other anglers, the list goes on.

I don't lose sleep over the fact that fish may have died after I release them. It's a consequence of my own actions. Instead of worrying over it, I try to contribute back to the fishery in other ways, and I encourage others to do the same. That includes individuals, organizations, tackle companies, and tournament organizers. Everyone should do their part. Those at the top of the food chain should set examples for those at the bottom.

I can't understand why you feel that tournament anglers should "give back" any more than recreational anglers. Simply because they are competing? Do you think the fish care? I would think if they were capable of such reasoning, they would be relieved to see a tournament angler on the other end of the line.

Tournaments are in the public spotlight, and should be setting a GOOD example for others to follow (much in the same way that tackle companies should). Proper C&R is a good start, but there is much more that could be done with the respective funding. The more organizations and companies that start setting good examples, the more potential there is for the average-joe angler to follow. Would a tournament suffer if they gave away a $40,000 boat instead of a $45,000 boat, and gave $5000 back to restocking the lake they just fished? Not likely. It's a very nominal contribution, but it sets an enourmous precedent.

Ho ho. Wait long enough and the opposition is sure to shoot themselves in the foot!

What are you talking about? Read it again, wiseguy. The point is that you (and other tournament anglers who I've had this debate with) will not even admit that there is a possibility that you are potentially harming the fisheries. If you weren't, I (and many others) would not be questioning your events.

Tournament organizers (and other big players in this area) are in a position to do a lot of good for the fisheries, but they don't seem to want to contribute because they don't feel they are doing any harm in the first place. It's that "It's not our problem" mentatility that sets me off. "Why should tournament anglers give any more back than the average angler"? Because you are in a position to do so, and as you said, you care about your fish like they were your pets.

FYI, Freddy is rolling over in his grave right now after your mis-quoted his lyrics.

HW

[BASSSTALKER]

average angler

used in the last post is copyrighted





no it's not... not yet anyway.

Good debate

I'm staying tuned!



Remember you touze are teammates!
go reels go


BASSSTALKER

[Guest]

No worries BS, I'll give CCB a big hug when we're all done. I still owe him a day of muskie fishing, so we'll have a great many debates in the future.

HW

[fishforfun]

CCB and HW you make some great points. Heres my problem, Derbies Tournaments aside I'm just an angler. My volunteer time is presently given to minor hockey, but I love fishing and will contribute $ to an organization or group who will put my money back into the fishery.
Heres what I would like to see.
#1 money to increase enforcement of the fish and game laws of this province.
#2 money to enhance stocking and other rehabilitation projects for the province
#3 my money is target specific, MT makes a good point if we are to donate Where?
I think most hawk talkers would be willing to contribute towards our fishery and environment, but where do we contribute. I won't give to the government and I refuse to give to organizations who spend big bucks on administration and salaries.
I see there are more posts already, I just feel if I'm going to give I want to give to a deserving group who will spend my money in the spirit it was given!
So if we want to help how can we?

[g unis]

yehaw guys. im just readin. good luck. pros and cons

[Cancatchbass]

Time to clear up another point, I see.

Bass are not stocked in eastern Ontario. Maybe not anywhere in Ontario. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Why? Probably because there is no need to. The populations are stable, by and large, and are reproducing on their own at a satisfactory rate, so it seems.

So, all this money- did I see a figure of $5,000 being thrown around? -should go to stocking what? Wally-eyes? Muskie? No comments from WIG and muskiemagnet et al, please.

"The point is that you (and other tournament anglers who I've had this debate with) will not even admit that there is a possibility that you are potentially harming the fisheries".

Possibly because we don't believe it to be so as there is no evidence to support the "possibility".

"Tournament organizers (and other big players in this area)"??? If you'd like, I can give you the numbers or emails of some of the big player tournament organizers I know and you can put some of your questions about giving back directly to them. Please don't be offended by their responses, though... Somehow, they just don't see themselves as "big players", with the possible exception of Dan Carrero of the CFT. He'd be more than happy to talk to you, I'm sure.

"Because you are in a position to do so" How is it that the average tournament angler is in a better position than a non-tournament angler to provide $$$ for programmes fo restore fisheries to level "X"? We definitely have no more $$$ to start out with as M.T. , Seaweed and others can confirm.

Are you aware that tournament organizations in eastern Ontario HAVE contributed time and effort to assist with fishery studies and the like? I've even spent 2 days as part of a Renegade Bass volunteer effort to locate the body of a drowned (non-tournament) angler in the Big Rideau a few years ago. Also, Renegade began a programme, a number of years back, of making a cash contribution to Lake Associations where tournaments were being held. I believe it was dropped once it was clear the funds were not appreciated and that some associations were actively working to have tournaments banned from "their" lakes. Again, if you'd like, I'll pm you the emails of some of the "executives" I know.

And guess what- our MNR is not exactly setting the world on fire with their studies, etc. They just don't have the funds any more.

As has been brought up in other posts, most anglers feel they would be willing to "support" the fisheries at higher levels than what we see at present. Our licenses are bargains. But with no accounting as to how the funds are being/will be spent, the majority are skeptical about the value of an increase in fees. And, again, tournament anglers shouldn't be singled out and be required to pay any more or any less than meat anglers, recreational 100% C&R anglers, or anyone else. Make sense?

CCB

[Markus]

With my catches I take the guess work out of whether the fish will live or die...I can usually accurately predict their fate 97% of the time.